Talk:List of in-person furry conventions by attendance

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Needs more data. -- Siege(talk) 15:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You mean like the data that might be found at the AFCIS? :-) ----DuncanDaHusky(talk) 15:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

FWA on this page shows 557 people in 2006, but the FWA wiki page says 563. Unsure which one is right. --Brody

Fixed. Spaz Kitty 08:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind seeing this page, or a page like this one, listing conventions historically by attendance. That would show more accurate data instead of just ranking cons by their most recent popularity. For example, Megaplex attendance peaked in 2005 with 387 attendees, but it only appears on this list as #10 with 185 from this year. This makes the list inaccurate because it is not clear that it's showing only the convention's most recent year. (That is, one would expect a ranking by attendance to list the con's -best- attendance.) Any thoughts? skippyfox 22:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

You mean kind of like the Anthropomorphic Fandom Convention Information Sheet?----DuncanDaHusky(talk) 22:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Minimum requirement?[edit]

So I noticed that we now have conventions with as few as 4 attendees on this list - does this really constitute a 'convention'? I mean, I've been to furry get-togethers with more than 5 people (for example, Tiger Paw regularly holds big parties), but I wouldn't go so far as to list them as a true 'convention'. Spaz Kitty 17:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

While it's been a long time since this question was posed, I'd like to direct those coming across this in the future to check out this discussion on Template_talk:Conventions where this was discussed in depth and some consensus reached about what qualifies. -- BlueOtter 15:24, 1 July 2012 (EDT)

Most recent MFM data?[edit]

There doesn't seem to be data for attendance at MFM XII (2008) anywhere on this site. Does anyone have an updated attendance record for it? I really doubt it dropped from 2007 to 2008. -Ian The Cowboy Fox 16:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

What belongs on what list[edit]

There are a couple of things about how the list is managed that seem to merit discussion:

  1. Some of the "conventions" listed might not really qualify as conventions and as such should probably be removed from the list. See Template talk:Conventions for a more detailed discussion.
  2. Cape May Fur Meet might be the first instance of a "devolved" event, i.e. an event that was in the past considered a convention and which still occurs but which no longer qualifies as a convention. Shall we add these to the "Discontinued or cancelled events" section?
  3. How long should we keep recently cancelled events on the main list, especially while there is a possibility they may only be skipping a year? When I've maintained the list in the past, I've left them in the main list for at least a year after the last occurrence, and usually until the end of the following year. My thinking is that an event that skips one year should never have to leave the main list. I don't think FA: United! ever did when it skipped a year. By those criteria, RBW 2010 should still be on the main list since it was less than a year ago and is currently planned to happen again in 2012. Nakamacon is more iffy since it was over a year ago but I think it too should be allowed to remain until we have a more definitive statement that it's not coming back (or at least until the end of 2011).

Thoughts? Dissenting opinions? --mwalimu 12:21, 2 August 2011 (EDT)

CONCUR:I agree with your first point - the definition of a convention vs other types of gatherings should be uniformly applied to lists across the Wiki. I agree with you that "devolved" events should be treated as "discontinued", though the title of this list probably needs to be changed to make it more inclusive to encompass such events. For your third point, I would suggest 24 months would quality a cancelled convention as 'dead', and would allow the examples you provided to remain for comparative purposes until they would be most unlikely to reoccur. BlueOtter 14:51, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
I agree with removing Cape May Fur Meet from the main list. However, I think FA: United was an exception. Most events, once in a state of suspension, do not return in subsequent years, and keeping them in the list is misleading. Perhaps we could change "ongoing events" to "active events" and remove any dubious ones to "recently inactive"? --GreenReaper(talk) 15:22, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
First, let me apologize for the edits before clarifying this point. I didn't read the notes in the editor. Where would Elliott's Winter Carnival, Summer Celebration, and Fall Festival fit in this list? According to the rules above, I'd think they should be combined. The thing I'm curious of, however, is whether or not they should be added with or apart from Elliott's Spring Gathering. The non-spring events are completely different than the spring event, other than the fact that they're run by the same group. Thoughts? --Mamu Dingo 15:59, 23 January 2012 (EST)
Since it's come up again with regard to Furry Connection North, should an event that has been cancelled remain on the main list until one year has passed since the last occurrence, or at least until the end of the year if it was within the current year? --mwalimu 18:34, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
Not unless the section title is changed. It is clearly not an ongoing event if it has been discontinued. If there were more question about whether another group would be taking on FCN, I could see us leaving it there. --GreenReaper(talk) 18:47, 3 September 2013 (EDT)

Per continent?[edit]

I think it might be useful to list events per continent or geographical area, because many events elsewhere are being 'buried' by the overwhelming amount of events in the US. Personally I would like to see a list containing only European events, it would make it much easier to compare. Rua Whitepaw 06:27, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

This is a bit late, but WikiFur's convention map can now be a) filtered by continent and b) sorted by attendance. There may be value to having a separate list, but I don't think it should be "the default" - and rather than create another Timeline of conventions by attendance (which will inevitably go out of date once people get bored with it), we should move to a data-driven query model (like the map, but globally for all of WikiFur). --GreenReaper(talk) 19:10, 26 August 2019 (EDT)

Registration vs attendance[edit]

Many, if not most, furcons sell registration in advance. This allows a claim of "xxx furs have now registered". However, this is not the same as attendance. Firstly, some of those registered may not attend for one reason or another, which means a reduction in attendance. Secondly, many cons sell "on the door" tickets which don't in the original registration figure.

Do one day attending tickets "count" as much as a three-day full registration ? Are we, in fact, just counting the number of "bodies" that pass through the doors ? In addition, are registration figures acceptable here if there are no actual attendance figurs available ?

Bezel 10:26, 1 July 2012 (EDT)

My understanding is that attendance is the number of people who have been to the convention at some point while it is going on, so yes, one-day attendance counting the same as three-day. I'd expect registration number (with a footnote if it's only the number of pre-registrations) to be the same as attendance number, generally. I don't think events usually count the physical crowd. -- Sine 13:52, 1 July 2012 (EDT)
I would term both preregistration passes and at-the-door tickets both as registrations - total number of registrations regardless of time (one day vs whole weekend). I would presume to only report on preregistration figures if the event posts no updated total for all registrations, or for events like Campfire Tails that offer no at-the-door registration option. I do not think number of bodies would be an appropriate figure to count to account for those who 'ghost' a convention (fail to register but trade badges or otherwise illegitimately gain access to convention areas) or only show up to socialize in public areas without registering for a badge, as those estimates are so variable, they provide little utility for comparative purposes. Posting total attendance aside from registration is less useful, in my opinion, as a convention in a large city can potentially host a public tent or table in a busy place to interact with non-registrants, but it speaks little to the convention's success or actual engaged registration / membership. BlueOtter 15:16, 1 July 2012 (EDT)
A related, more serious issue that we may need to pay closer attention to is conventions allowing or encouraging "paper registered" figures to be seen as their final attendance. This applies in the (relatively rare) case where you can pre-register without payment. ConFuzzled (as an example) clearly separates this figure in its statistics, while Rusfurence does not - at least, not for non-residential "guests" - and does not appear to have gone back to update with a more accurate figure after the close of the convention. I am given to understand that the issue was raised within that convention's organization team in the past, but there was no will to address it because the situation as it stands gives a more positive impression. (It may help explain why there was not much concern about using a smaller venue this year.) --GreenReaper(talk) 19:23, 26 August 2019 (EDT)

Number of Attendees and Dealers[edit]

As for Kemoket, Kemono doujin market, it's simply strange to put the number of circles (dealers) instead of actual attendees (at least reaching several thousands). Mangluca 23:17, 18 February 2021 (JST)

Well, when they actually publish that data we will gladly use it, but at this point it's what we have available. I agree it's not ideal. --GreenReaper(talk) 11:04, 18 April 2021 (EDT)

Any reason to include cancelled events?[edit]

I can't see any reason to include cancelled events, which by definition would not have been attended. -- Sine 19:28, 6 February 2013 (EST)

Table format[edit]

Some recent edits by Seadragom changed the format of the main list to a table format. It looks nice but because of the rank column in particular I'm concerned that it will require a lot more nitpicky busywork every time a convention moves up or down the ranks, or especially when one is added to or removed from the main list. There would also be more line-by-line editing required when moving entries from the main list to one of the other lists, such as the one for conventions lacking recent updates (and at this writing there are several in the main list dating to 2016 or older that really should be moved there). I'm especially concerned that less experienced editors, and those with less time to tweak and refine their edits, might just decide it's more trouble than it's worth and leave it to someone else, which some of the time will mean no one else.

If there's a way to have the rank numbers be automatically generated and to update automatically, that would be a huge help. Unless that can be done, I'm afraid the article could end up becoming a big mess. --mwalimu (talk) 14:04, 10 July 2018 (EDT)

I think it's less work than you'd think initially - cons swap places all the time, it doesn't require massive refactoring unless new conventions appear or old ones disappear. As far as differences to the old list go, it's not *hugely* different, just has a bit more markup. I did have a look to see if there's a way of automatically numbering lists - seems like there might be in newer, visual MediaWiki editors but since the version we're using here is somewhat behind the likes of Wikia or Wikipedia I don't think it exists - more than happy to be proven wrong on this one though! Although even on Wikipedia, if we consider an article like "list of highest mountains" it seems they still have the rank.
Of course, with the table being sortable, if it's really a problem and is bothering people then I'd suggest just removing the numbers column altogether and moving the size column to the left and setting it as the default sort. It'll be less work, but also more difficult for people to see what rank a specific convention is in overall.
The other thing to consider as well is that, are you looking for a page to be presentable or easy to edit? If a Wiki is to take itself seriously it can't realistically be taking shortcuts on pages like this, as tempting as the idea might be. Of course, I can always volunteer myself to support the page, but that's never going to be a longer-term solution. Seadragom (talk) 14:25, 10 July 2018 (EDT)
It's a problem. I made a solution by adding mw:Extension:Variables. Just copy the column as it is and it'll count up appropriately. Unfortunately this won't give you equal ranks if you have the same number, but I guess we could say the older one goes on top (since it's likely to have grown the next time). If you need a new table (on this page), replace the variable name 'n' with something else. Markup is a bit ugly, could put it in a template like {{countup|}} (the last | is important, otherwise it'll treat the result as constant) but it'd be another template expansion on each row so I don't think it's a good idea. This could probably have been done via Lua without adding a new extension, but writing a script seems overkill. This doesn't address the issue that the "list" is now technically a table, but I guess it can be a tabular list. --GreenReaper(talk) 12:41, 4 January 2019 (EST)

WPAFW con data[edit]

WPAFW now has updated stats --EmberFox 💜 (talk) 23:09, 22 July 2018 (EDT)

Separate storage for semantic data[edit]

We need to get into a position where we're updating data about topics in one place (a triplestore or graph database) and having data representations such as this list update themselves via semantic queries. This will free up editors' time to do new, exciting things with that data, rather than follow checklists to update it in six different places (or not, leading to out of date or inconsistent data). It's probably not yet time to action this, but I thought I'd mention it to let you know what I'm thinking and see if other people wanted to chime in with further ideas.

The obvious uses are lists and tables and charts linked at the top of {{Conventions}} such as this list and its historical equivalent, {{Upcoming events}}, {{Timeline of conventions}}, charity donations and expenses and revenue (see {{con-finance}}); interlanguage links between our 20+ languages; infoboxes and the Furry Convention Map (for which we really should separate script and data). It should also be possible to handle the body of navigation templates like {{Conventions}} and {{Discontinued Conventions}}, although that may prove impractical due to the level of editorial consideration required to list or remove events. It could be used for data items in body text as well, but Wikipedia saw pushback on this (admittedly in 2013, but it's still an issue). Perhaps it can be useful for a few specific in-line templates.

A decade ago, the solution would have been Semantic MediaWiki. It still exists, and is being developed; but for these limited purposes Wikibase may be a better solution. Wikimedia's instance of this is called Wikidata - they have a Lua module that integrates with the client API, use it for interlanguage links (a key motivator) and some infoboxes, and while the English Wikipedia has been slow to deploy lists, they exist in other languages. It's possible that we can just use Wikidata to store the data we want - which would be great, both to avoid the serious infrastructure implications of running it ourselves, but also there are already data items there - e.g. for Anthrocon and a few other furry conventions - and it'd help third-parties easily use and update that data. In an ideal world, WikiFur's content would have been a part of Wikipedia.

It's also possible that we can't, because while they are not Wikipedia, we will still run into things like their notability criteria (per option 2, events are concrete; but this may be hard to prove for smaller events) and proposed verifiability policy. It might also be that we can only store a subset of data there, which might or might not be sufficient for our needs (e.g. we might have to locally merge data like WikiFur image URL suffixes and event ticket pricing that we currently have in the map script). But see Wikipedia's RfC on use of data in infoboxes - it may be that the line will be drawn on the import process, so it wouldn't be an issue to have "good enough for furries" data in Wikidata, since they can always choose not to use certain data on the Wikipedia side via e.g. reference filtering.

If we can't use Wikidata (or decide not to for e.g. latency reasons - our server is in Europe, theirs are in Virginia and Texas, USA - I don't actually know how relevant this would be right now), we'll need to fire up our own instance of the Wikibase Repository, Wikibase Client, and for SPARQL queries, a standalone implementation of Wikidata Query Service (though see wikidata-filter and importing filtered dumps to ElasticSearch). OpenStreetMap appears to have done (some of) this. The repository could be integrated into pool: (or here, but that might be a bad idea because data is meant to be language-neutral), perhaps in a separate namespace. The main argument for having it here would be to make it likely that changes are reviewed; this is already a problem on Wikidata due to the sheer volume of edits, and they won't have the domain knowledge to notice odd changes. Wikipedia seems to have a way for relevant changes to be notified to watching users; but this may not be feasible because we also don't have enough editors reading watchlists or watching relevant pages, just the global recent changes.

Either way we'd need templates to do name searches within a category, say, wrapping lower-level statement calls, so we don't embed references to incomprehensible data item IDs (nobody wants {{#property:P36|from=Q183}}). --GreenReaper(talk) 10:53, 29 August 2019 (EDT)

Topics to review later: Wikidata Bridge (editing on the page) and how to enable it - Wikidata Cradle (entry forms). --GreenReaper(talk) 17:18, 25 January 2021 (EST)
I've been working on this recently. As Wikibase's server components will require a lot more work upfront, I set up a prototype on WBStack (an open-source Wikibase hosting service, itself a work in progress, now supported by WMDE). There's a significant learning curve, but mostly in the areas of data architecture and query writing. I hope to ease data entry for a new convention instance or series; and using the results of pre-built queries or data on a specific event on its page should be trivial, since Wikipedia has libraries for inline data access and infobox templates. There's also lexicographical data - essentially, a structured way to cover furry terms in both real-life (e.g. felano) and fantasy languages (yerf). At this point it's largely a tool for self-education, but if anyone else wants an account to join in, let me know. We've not lost out from the delay, as significant work has gone into Wikibase to make it perform better (we don't have Wikimedia's budget) and work better in federation (if we want to link it with Wikidata or other compatible databases). --GreenReaper(talk) 11:02, 18 April 2021 (EDT)
The prototype is now on, WBStack's successor directly sponsored by WMDE, although I haven't done much work on it since last year. Work is underway to migrate WikiFur to the new hosting currently used for Flayrah, which is likely to eventually directly host a Wikibase instance as well; but it'll be several months until this is achieved, as it's a complex undertaking. Because other sites rely in part on the English WikiFur (for images etc.), and it's the largest edition, it'll probably be migrated last. --GreenReaper(talk) 20:43, 8 May 2022 (EDT)
I hadn't seen the page before, but the list of fursuit dance competition results is another great candidate for turning into data, which might resolve some of the issues about inconsistent display of names. --GreenReaper(talk) 03:49, 21 May 2022 (EDT)

Online events[edit]

I think we should establish a consensus on whether we should include virtual events on this list or not, especially considering Furality Online Xperience was added to the list by an editor whose edits are mostly involved with said event, and the removal by an IP editor was reverted by one of the organizers of the event. Obviously, I don't have a problem with organizers adding information about their own event, but I also think that we don't have precedent to add this event to the list yet. My opinion is that we shouldn't have both on the same list. But I'm open to hear what others think. --FrostTheFox (talk) 21:26, 24 June 2020 (EDT)

I believe the definition of "conventions" has already been discussed elsewhere and virtual events do not meet the registration/staffing/lodging requirements which generally define a convention as being a unique type of event, compared to meets or other such gatherings.--Woody (talk) 14:07, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

Agreed, I had seen previous discussions but of course with the current events being as they are, wanted to bring it up on its own merits. In any case, it looks like User:Meeran has created Online conventions by size, which is the course of action I believe should be taken, so for now I don't have anything else to discuss. --FrostTheFox (talk) 23:11, 10 July 2020 (EDT)
I realize this is a bit late, but I was doing research for Accounting and IRS considerations earlier in the year and ran into this question as well. I think that online events should not be listed in the same table as "IRL" events. My reasoning comes down to the dramatic differences in how one attends such an event (virtual can attend from anywhere, in person requires travel) and the kinds of expenses and organization that are needed for such event (Online: a small team using existing software can host thousands of people, in person... can you imagine running Anthrocon with a staff of 12?). To me Online and IRL cons are fundamentally different, and therefore it is not suitable to directly compare them on a list like this. Just want to leave this here in case there is future discussion. Thanks, Verdauga (talk) 04:15, 23 December 2020 (EST)
Just to add onto this discussion, since there was a large emphasis on whether online conventions are comparable to "IRL" events based on factors like staffing and operational effort and cost being distinctly different, not all online conventions are equal in this fact anymore. The recent Furality had similar operational costs to several "traditional" conventions and also had over 100 volunteers, also echoing "traditional" conventions. As a result it was quite a different experience compared to previous online conventions that just consisted of a video stream and website, and I feel it is a lot closer to our idea of an "IRL" event compared to those. (While lodging is still significantly different compared to "IRL" events, there still is an investment required on the attendee end, VR Headset, Computing hardware powerful enough to attend, etc, that doesn't make it a sure-fired thing either) I think a large part of whether we consider a convention like Furality in the same category as an "IRL" convention should be the attendee experience instead of just the medium it's on, and at least compared to those "stream with website" conventions on the Online conventions by size page, VR conventions such as Furality provide a much closer attendee experience to an "IRL" con. --CyberKitsune (talk) 16:30, 21 June 2022 (EDT)

Perhaps this category should then be changed to List of in person conventions by attendance if we are going to split hairs about what a convention is? (talk) 17:27, 21 June 2022 (pst)

"Splitting hairs about what a convention is" would mean online events aren't conventions. Rather, conventions would be defined as in-person events of a certain kind, and online events are another form of event - just as we have had for parties like Furloween, which lacked dealing or panels and also lacked an overnight stay. So is this the case? Or are events like Furality serving the same purpose as "conventions", to the extent that they should be called the same thing? In that case, a move is appropriate, say to List of in-person furry conventions by attendance; I'd rather actually move the article than have a list that merges two types of event which cannot be fairly compared due to their online vs. offline nature - it's not a level playing field. We can do it without copy-pasting the article, to preserve its history. --GreenReaper(talk) 22:07, 21 June 2022 (EDT)
I would agree that not all "online events" are "online conventions" in much the same way we split in person events vs conventions. However, Furality is as much as a convention as any other in-person convention. If we have attendance by method a convention takes place and this is the combined page, Furality belongs on it. I do agree the online events by size should be reworked to be more like the in-person by size and more structure in the online events / online conventions area of the wiki. --Foxxer 22:27, 21 June 2022 (EDT)
One thing we should take into account is the purpose pages serve for the community on wikifur. The main page of "conventions by attendance" has been probably one of the most commonly referenced pages to find out what conventions exist (regardless of the size and regardless of the fact there is a whole template for that). I think to address the concerns of online conventions being excluded in the list in this context is important. We should have a combined page available (even if the attendance numbers cannot be fairly compared due to their online vs. offline nature). --Foxxer 23:05, 21 June 2022 (EDT)
That's why I addressed it in the lede, by pointing to the list of online furry conventions, so those interested can visit. :-) The reality is that we barely have editorial capacity to maintain the lists we have, which is why I've been investigating options that would enable automatic list generation in the previous section. Once that is done it would be feasible to generate lists on other basis, too (language, country/region, age range, etc.). As you say, there's also a combined list on Template:Conventions and it might be reasonable to include them on Template:Timeline of conventions too, in a separate section, as that is not ordered by attendance. Putting them on the map may be trickier but perhaps we could place them in the sea? There is a lot of empty space there... --GreenReaper(talk) 23:21, 21 June 2022 (EDT)
Might I suggest Null Island? ;) Realistically I'd say it and other virtual events with round-the-clock programming like Furality does should be listed as 'Global' with no specific location. So its reasonable it wouldn't appear on a map. Otherwise, I will personally say I feel it would be right to say there should be an 'all events' list which combines both all types and can then be filtered as suggested. One would be hard pressed to find anyone who has attended Furality to say it's not equivalent to any iRL event given its scope of effort by the staff and volunteers, the kinds of activities that take place, the matching elements in format (themed, limited timeframe, ticketed entry) and the things which are different but the nearest equivalent (con pack->avatar assets, hotel as host->VRC as host, conbook->portal, etc). It certainly deserves to appear alongside the other big cons. Nidonocu - talk Nidonocu 14:22, 22 June 2022 (EDT)
This situation is nearly unprecedented since up to recently, a meeting, conference or assembly of furries (convention) was only possible though being physically in the same location, which would therefore be a reasonably assumed quality of such. Questioning the definition of a convention doesn't automatically mean a virtual event is not one, but rather brings attention to that physical quality being mostly assumed instead of a solid part of defining what a convention is. Same goes with events and online events, which sounds redundant on itself already. Certainly Online conventions and physical conventions have clear differences, but they are both conventions. It might perhaps help then, if there is a concensus over what the difference is between a virtual convention and a virtual meeting; since shedding light upon that dinstinction might also clear the validity, similarities and/or differences between a virtual convention and a physical one. As a last note, it might also be of big importance to take the future of furry events in consideration and the general perception they will have, as well as the practical use and purpose that will be given to this list (Kreic) 22:13, 21 June 2022 (CT)