WikiFur - User contributions [en]

Around the Fur Studio

2010-01-21T04:09:09Z

Trpdwarf: Created page with 'Around the Fur Studio is a small fur-suit making venture run by Trpdwarf and Zeke Shadowfyre. It is particularly known for good quality tails.'

Around the Fur Studio is a small fur-suit making venture run by Trpdwarf and Zeke Shadowfyre. It is particularly known for good quality tails.

User:Trpdwarf

2010-01-21T04:07:15Z

Trpdwarf:

Trpdwarf (also known as Y'Knossos)is a fursuiter, fursuit maker, novice writer and one half of who makes up Around the Fur Studio.

Her fursona is a genderless Lung(dragon). Although a furry for going on a decade it is only within the last 2-3 years that she has picked up an active interest in fur-suiting. When she can she likes to volunteer time in suit to the local farmer's market in her area.

Trpdwarf

2009-06-25T04:10:31Z

Trpdwarf:

'''Trpdwarf''' is a [[fursuiter]] and one of two fursuit-makers in [[Around the Fur Studio]]. Her [[fursona]] is a Chinese Lung.

{{Contributor}}

{{person-stub}}

[[Category:People]]
[[Category:Fursuiters]]
[[Category:Fursuit makers]]

User:Trpdwarf

2009-03-24T11:56:21Z

Trpdwarf:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/Sanguvixen/Trpdwarficonimage.jpg

Trpdwarf is one of the two furries who make up a fursuit making site known as Around the Fur Studio. This fur is short, fiery, and according to some internet goers she is slightly pretentious, and stubborn. Trpdwarf seems to enjoy a good discussion/debate and prefers to try to look at things as objectively as possible. As far as religion goes, she says that she "Disassociates with it". As far as sexuality goes she is asexual, and therefore enjoys the non-sexual side of the furry fandom.

Her fursona is the Maned Wolf, but she has a genderless Albino Eastern Dragon as an alt. She enjoys writing, and is attempting to bring together a book series together that caters to the furrie fandom.

As far as suiting goes, she enjoys volunteering in the local community while in suit and attending cons when she can.

User:Trpdwarf

2009-03-24T11:54:17Z

Trpdwarf:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/Sanguvixen/Trpdwarficonimage.jpg

Trpdwarf is one of the two furries who make up a fursuit making site known as Around the Fur Studio. She is short, fiery, and according to some internet goers she is slightly pretentious, and stubborn. Trpdwarf seems to enjoy a good discussion/debate and prefers to try to look at things as objectively as possible. As far as religion goes, she says that she "Disassociates with it". She is also a self-described Asexual, and enjoys the tamer side of the furry fandom. She can be found on Youtube as one of the two furries of the account 2furs1account and also on Fur Affinity as Trpdwarf.

Her fursona is the Maned Wolf, but she has a genderless Albino Eastern Dragon as an alt. She enjoys writing, and is attempting to bring together a book series together that caters to the furrie fandom.

As far as suiting goes, she enjoys volunteering in the local community while in suit and attending cons when she can.

User:Trpdwarf

2009-03-23T12:14:03Z

Trpdwarf:

User:Trpdwarf

2009-03-23T12:10:35Z

Trpdwarf:

[IMG]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/Sanguvixen/Trpdwarficonimage.jpg[/IMG]

Trpdwarf is one of the two furries who make up a fursuit making site known as Around the Fur Studio. She is 21 years old, short, fiery, and according to some internet goers she is slightly pretentious, stubborn, and argumentative. She is a self-described Asexual, and enjoys the tamer side of the fandom.

Her fursona is the Maned Wolf, but she has a genderless Albino Eastern Dragon as an alt. She enjoys writing, and is attempting to bring together a book series together that caters to the furrie fandom. She draws inspiration from writers such as Brian Jaques and Micheal Crichton.

User:Trpdwarf

2009-03-23T12:08:24Z

Trpdwarf:

Trpdwarf is one of the two furries who make up a fursuit making site known as Around the Fur Studio. She is 21 years old, short, fiery, and according to some internet goers she is slightly pretentious, stubborn, and argumentative. She is a self-described Asexual, and enjoys the tamer side of the fandom.

Her fursona is the Maned Wolf, but she has a genderless Albino Eastern Dragon as an alt. She enjoys writing, and is attempting to bring together a book series together that caters to the furrie fandom. She draws inspiration from writers such as Brian Jaques and Micheal Crichton.

User:Trpdwarf

2009-03-23T12:05:30Z

Trpdwarf: Created page with 'Trpdwarf is one of the two furries who make up a fursuit making site known as Around the Fur Studio. She is 21 years old, short, fiery, and according to some internet goers she i...'

Talk:Therian

2009-03-17T17:32:49Z

Trpdwarf: /* Time for a few actual rennovations */

The following paragraph was removed from the main article, under the reason of being "very bias[sic]":
:In many ways, therians could be called [[were]]-lifestylers, except most therians are aggressivly against the idea of conciously assuming animal traits, a trait they feel is a hallmark of wannabes and [[lifestylers]]. Instead, they prefer to believe that the therian state is something people cannot assume.
Instead of keeping the entire pragraph out, could someone rewrite it, if possible, to just be a lot less biased and then reinsert it? Thanks, --[[User:Dmuth|Dmuth]] 19:21, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)

:That's not, in any way, an accurate representation of therians. It -should- be removed outright. {{unsigned|24.162.235.5}} 00:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

== TherianTemple.com ==

Therian Temple lewks like a dead obvious CULT to me. Cults are a SERIOUS problem in the Were-World, ESPECIALLY to young, developing therians. This one, just from the front page is DEFINATELY a Cult, notice: I do not say "coven", I say CULT. Please DO NOT replace this link. thank you to the anon who was removing it and EarthFurst who brought it to my attention. Also: for Future reference: CAREFULL WHAT YOU LINK AS A THERIAN RESOURCE!!! If it dosn't look like Werelist or something, ask some therian knowledgable people to check for you. I can't stress enough how important this is, ESPECIALLY since WikiFur was what showed mee Therian in the first place.

regards: '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]''' 03:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

-----------------
The Therian Temple is not a cult. Cults recruit, Cults force members to do things, cults have an idolized Leader...they dont do any of that.
Its very close minded to try and write off something new right away just because its not just like what you believe in.
The T.T. has members in 4 countries including members of the US Armed Forces.
None of them have ever done anythign illegal-you would have seen it on the news: "Werewolf cult kills babies" or something-but you didnt-because its justa group of people who study magic and read books-quit being so mean. ~tolerant one {{Unsigned|67.149.55.134}}

:oh really? and you are?
:Pah! whatever. We can't put it up there anyway, it's considered a scam by every therian I know (I doubt you are one, but I won't go there). Even still, I KNOW what cults do to us, so I want to keep this stuff off of wikifur, especially for what I said before. if you REALLY want to try for this, wait a week or two, the Therian Wiki is currently waiting for Wikia staff to make it, we can discuss this there. '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]'''

::I actually agree with tolerant one on this one...it is not a cult. But it is a scam, and something to be avoided.-{{Unsigned|Xainy}}

:I will state here what I said in another talk page:
Due to possible conflict of interest, I will not personally edit this article, however:
If there is reliable information needed about the Therian Temple, please go straight to the source and email me: ordovirbestia@theriantemple.com

For the record:
One thing can be certain: no TT member has ever committed a crime.
If any member was ever to do so, they would have their membership immediately revoked (we don't even allow illegal drug use).
Stating in an online resource that we are involved in ANY criminal activity is in fact a legal issue of libel / slander (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel) and legal action WILL be taken against any people making such false claims.

Peace to you all.
Magus Fenrir Therion,
Therian Temple
[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

:Regardless of how the KoolAid actually tastes, I'm going to leave links to the Temple off this article, as well as [[Therianthropy]]. The links that continue to stay are both informative resources that tell me more about therians and therianthropy. I would also advise that [[Therian Temple]] gets a heavy overhaul so you're not selling the site or shilling your product on the wiki. Also, please do not come in here touting the law stick. All of you behave, please. You too, cchristian. --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 17:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:Perhaps you can overhaul that article. As I stated, I will not be editing Therian related articles due to POV / Conflict of interest issues.
The "Law stick", as you call it, was necessary at the time, due to someone writing in that "cults like Therian Temple kill people", which is an obviously libelous claim, which can easily be proven false by simply doing even minor research.

We do not recruit new members or "sell" anything. Obviously, as a new group, we are not as big and rich as the Christian church that we can give out printed Bibles for free like the Gideons, and the only cost in the TT is the price of the hardcover book, which cost money to print and ship.There is no advertising anywhere for the TT, in print OR online, due to the fact that we wish for only genuinely interested people who have come across it on their own to get involved.

We keep to ourselves generally. Frankly, I think other TT members would agree that we would have preferred to keep somewhat private, but with all these cruel lies being put on highly trafficked sites, I'm sure you can see why some amount of self-defense was needed.

I am a very friendly and reasonable person, and I can't see why people don't just contact the TT when they have these types of serious questions / accusations about us and our activities. Our email is right on the site, and anyone is welcome to ask questions. I mean, seriously, if you actually thought a group was participating in killing or anything close to that, wouldn't you investigate it, or at least contact the authorities to see if any "werewolf murders" had ever occurred? To just say it in a wiki page is clearly just an attempt to make a minority group of adherents look bad publicly for whatever reasons / agendas.

I do respect and Thank you, Kendricks, for keeping an objective "wiki" type of perspective on this issue, when so many others have been editing in their own personal views into related articles.
[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
:Although you can threaten with legal threats, we would ask that you [[Legal threats|do not for these reasons]]. As for your print issues, if this is a religious group, you can ask for tithing or simply ask for donations. Forcing someone to buy their way into your religion sits wrong on MANY people, including me. Thank you for understanding the need for an NPOV, however the same standards are expected of you and your roommate as well. Making thinly veiled jabs and attacks on other sites do not lend well to your claims of good faith. Quite simply to quote religiously, "[[Wikipedia:Golden Rule|do unto others as you would have them do unto you]]" and "turn the other cheek."--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 02:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

:Dear Sir,(Madame?) I believe you are very confused, or being fed misinformation somehow.
No one is "forced" to buy or do anything.
Also, we are not a Christian group, and do not and will never ask for tithing (10% of people's yearly income, as asked by "tithing" churches is a LOT more than the cost of one copy of a hardcover book). No one can "buy their way into" any religion, either they believe in it and follow it or the don't.
Obviously, though, you would want people to know what you are talking about when referring to the book.
Christian churches don't require new member to buy their book because ther bible is Readily available anywhere, due to hundreds of YEARS of mass distribution
What "jabs" are you talking about?
Defending the group of which I am a member by saying that we do not allow illegal activity is an attack on someone? Who? How?
Also, we are not a Christian group, and thus, are not bound by the Christian "golden rule", and personally, I see it more fit to "do unto others as THEY HAVE DONE TO YOU". If someone insults me with false accusations, and is somehow insulted by the fact that their accusations have been publicly proven false, this is only fair game.
I don't see it as an attack to protect myself and my group from slanderous lies being spread about us.
This is beginning to seem like a gang-up tactic on here, with a bunch people forcing me having to explain things that are already clearly stated on the TT site.
I hope you do plan to make this site and its information remain objective and not let people's personal views blur the line between some people's fantasy and reality.[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

:I'm not ganging up on anyone or anything. I'm staying neutral. That should have been honest when I suspended Christian for attacking you. When I said "buying" one's way into a religion, I was referring to the fact that to join your religion, you have to give someone $30 bucks. Otherwise you can't get in. It's like any other one of those television evangelists who will share the secrets of God with you for 5 easy payments. The jabs I referred to is your edits to Werelist. The edits have been cleaned up there. As for the Golden Rule, it doesn't necessarily have to be Christian. It's just morally good sense. Retaliation like you seem to support is the reason that this conflict will likely continue on. Break the cycle, dude. Otherwise, it will be assumed that any edits you make on this wiki will be in bad faith and will be automatically reverted.--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 01:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:Maybe you overlooked a main point:
"Obviously, you would want people to know what you are talking about when referring to the book." --Meaning-it would be unfair & deceitful to allow people to participate in a "religion" if some of them did not have the book and some did. Requiring that people read the book first helps make sure that everyone involved knows what they are getting into / supporting. That should be easy to understand.
Again: Christian churches don't require new members to buy their book because their bible is Readily available anywhere, due to hundreds of YEARS of mass distribution, and MOST people have already read or at least have a copy of the Holy Bible.
Also, most christian groups pursue a tax-exempt status, and therefore many materials are subsidized. We, however, do not pursue a tax-exempt status, thus we pay full cost for our materials, and pay taxes on them. I don't see how anyone could consider that to be anything like television evangelists who are using a widely available text (the Holy Bible) and who do not pay taxes. [[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
:You know it's not just Christianity that does this, you know. :-) Most religions fall under that tax-exemption. You should investigate it yourself. And I don't think you pay attention to TV evangelists who hawk wares like their own personal books or my personal favorite was the prayer hankie. The point I was making earlier is that churchs, synagogues and mosques tend to operate due to DONATIONS by the members, not by paying dues or by paying an entrance fee. You claim to have this mass flock in 4 countries. It should be no trouble at all ask for donations because really what are your expenses? You can get your book tossed off a vanity press or if you really want to be new age, have it available on the good ol Internet. Beyond, there's website upkeep and...? Anything beyond that and you MIGHT be setting your sights too high too soon. :) My other point is your line about the people reading the book first before they know what they're getting into. However they've already paid their $30 and a little voice tells me that you probably don't offer refunds. Just like the TV evangelists. Stupid prayer hankie. --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 18:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:Why do people keep acting like $30 is a lot of money? What are you people homeless or something? I spend $30 on lunch. Analogy: If I wanted to check out a musician's latest CD, I would only be given minor samples of what it contained (radio songs,myspace page, music video etc.) , and would have to buy the CD to hear the rest of it. Should I get a refund if I end up only liking one song on the CD? NO, because it cost money to make the CD, and I agreed to take the risk that I may or may not like the whole CD. You are being ridiculous, and you sound like a communist...-[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
::Actually $30 may be a bit overspending on your lunch. I think I pay 5 bucks at my local hot dog stand. :-) And for many furries, otherkin and therian, $30 bucks can be a frivolous expenditure. And, btw, noting your analogy, you don't offer clips and snippets. Maybe that'd be an idea?--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 22:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

:If one views "Temple Mission" on our site there are very basic excerpts from the Therian Bible there, for which we have chosen the more "stern" elements to filter out anyone potentially not prepared to deal with our form of Practices, thus those who buy the book already expect order and rules, and no one has ever asked for a "refund".
And, personally, I do not eat "hot dogs", or any other animals, and would never risk my own health on a meal costing merely $5. Nor would I waste my time on a book that needs to be given out for free, as if the group is desperate for members. Books also can constitute mind food... If You are what you eat, and you eat cheap garbage...well, then....

-[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

::Sorry to inturrupt, but don't you ''claim'' to be a were-WOLF??? How could you stand to "not eat any animals"? I mean, some of us even drool over ROAD KILL sometimes. I've broken the rule somewhere in the Torah saying "though shalt not drink blood" a few times, simply because I can't resist the urges. You come along and say that you are a Wolf therian, yet you insult the consumption of meat as if it disgusts you in some way. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you are being entirely truthful here... '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]'''

Indeed one could consider it suspicious, but I do know many predatory therians that do not consume meat. One can contol one's instincts in an effort to control the animal within. As a wolf therian, I refuse to eat most meat, as most meat around here is factory farmed and disgusting. I eat only meat that I myself kill, and so I recieve it roughly once a week. I'm simply saying, even a carnivorous therianthrope can refrain from eating meat if they so wish it.

== Therians don't bring their animal into their daily lives? Dowhaa? ==

''"Therians differ from the Furry lifestyle in that they do not try to mimic or bring their animal into their daily lives. Therians understand their nature as being -human- and -animal- and as thus feel no need to pretend or 'play the role' of the animal, save in some circumstances."''

While this is certainly typical of a fair number of therians, I personally know several that do not fall into this generalization. While they do indeed understand their nature of being both human and animal, by no means does this mean that their phenotype does not make itself apparent in everyday life. Now, I don't mean to say they howl at the moon or things like that, but their animal does tend to make itself visible in their mannerisms and habits. This should be reworded to reflect this diversity or removed entirely. [[User:Baral'heia|Baral'heia Stormdancer]] 07:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I do agree with this. Stating that all therians behave in such a manner simply is not true. I in no way hide the wolf within me, and as such it tends to show, especially in my personality and the habits I form.

== Two things I feel necessary to bring up. ==

--[[User:Trpdwarf|Trpdwarf]] 18:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that it is a bit strange to try to put a Physical shift into this. The Physical shift that is spoken of more tied to Lycanthropy which is the past has been tied to Ergot(a fungus), Rabies in humans, and or a fear of people who appeared overly hairy, or seemed overtly bestial. It is stated in the article the aggressive stance towards so called P shifting therefore it makes better sense to not have the entire thing there at all.

Also this article needs to not have otherkin inflections in it. This article is about Therians therefore things related to Otherkin need to not be here. Now maybe some people who identify as Therian think that being Therian is about having a soul other than human, but I know more than a few long standing Therians who feel quite the opposite. They do not make the claim to having souls other than human. Perhaps it is better that the idea of "Animal soul other than human" is kept out of the article altogether.
EDIT: Also this

"A distinction between mythical therians and otherkin can be found however, as many otherkin seem to believe they have a 'past life' or an 'alternate existence/persona' which makes up their otherkin nature. Therians do not see their animalistic nature as being separate from themselves and as thus many of these types of mythicals have joined therian community."

I want to know where this is coming from? I have removed it and put it here. Who ever put it there, I'd like an explainion of it. A distinction between "Mythical Therians?". That means what? Therians usually associate with animals that are real. AkA, they have the totem of the crow, the wolf, the coyote, ect. Also a thorough explanation of the rest is wanted as well. Again, the article is about Therians, and Therian does not equal Otherkin.

== Time for a few actual rennovations ==

I added a few things, changed a few things, and removed a few things. Therianthropy does not (for example), have anything at all to do with animal totems, or invoking animal spirits--and it never has. As otherkin are people who feel they are other than human, therians most certainly are a type of otherkin. A lot of the best were sites on the web have fallen into disrepair, been lost, or come under new management in recent years. We've come a long way since the days of AHWW, but we're at a bit of a low point right now, community wise. I see a lot of misconceptions and misinformation floating around.

I'm not sure where the idea came from that otherkin are some sort of completely seperate phenomenon, but apart from therians having known animals as their other side, and otherkin having mythical/fantastical creatures as their other side, there is little difference. The two communities did 'evolve' seperately, but there has been a lot of overlap over the years, and I challenge anyone to come up with a point of significant difference between the two. Some otherkin 'shift' just as therians do, and some therians do not shift (contherianthropy). There is no clearcut line.

The entire lot of descriptions of shifting were wrong, so I have corrected them. Therians do not need to use drugs or meditation to shift. I'm sure there are a few out there who do, but they do not need to, and I see no point in mentioning what is not a common practice. Shifting is generally easy for therians, if we are in the right setting. A person who has to take drugs to do it is either not therian, or has serious psychological problems.

--the surly old greymuzzle,

{{WingedWolfPsion}} 19:51, 12 March 2009 (CST)

This thread is about Therians. This thread is not about Otherkin. Therefore Otherkin beliefs should not show up here but rather in the Otherkin wiki.

As for the person going on about "Therians are not about animal totems" blah-blah-blah...as long as I have known about Therians, it has been nothing but about, totem animals, or animal spirit guides. W

There is a huge difference between Otherkin and therians. Therianthropy has a history that goes all the way back to the Greeks, and further. The Greeks only coined the term.It would make sense the only reason they came up with the term is due to being exposed to perhaps African culture, and Pagan cultures during trade relations. What they came across were people who has shamanistic, or druidistic in form, hence the translation "Beast human" or "Beast people". That's the history of the word, but good luck finding a source that was not edited by Otherkin.

The basic generalization we can make is that it was to describe people who thought they can either turn into an animal, or people who believed that other people could, or people who believed they descended from animals turned human. If you are going to turn around and say "You are a therian" today you cannot exactly say you transform into something physically. That's crazy. Agree or disagree? If you want to claim Therian by soul, it would make sense you would also have to claim that you are an animal that physically turned into an human and thus have a animal soul. There is nothing in the associated history from what I can see that leads to "You are born with different soul". That's really an otherkin thing. Now that is what otherkin claim, that Therian is about "having a animal soul" but I look at history and possible origins of words and I cannot agree. At the least there should be a distinction between the original modern therian sect, and the neo sect that has started from Otherkin.

------------------------------
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Therianthropy IN THIS CONTEXT has a history that goes all the way back to AHWW Usenet newsgroup, and that's as far as it goes. It surely existed before then, but there was no community. Historical interpretations of the term have nothing to do with modern 'spiritual therianthropy' or the therian community. Therians are considered to be a type of otherkin by most. The only difference is what I have said--the type of creature one's inner self is. Nothing else. If you believe there is another difference, please share that difference with us. "There is a huge difference" and citing a lot of things about the Greeks (you actually said nothing specific at all) doesn't cut it. Tell us exactly what you believe the difference is. Keeping mind that therianthropy is a modern phenomenon with an extensive modern community.

Your interpretation of the word therianthropy has no historical basis. The word is merely used to describe any sort of animal people or shapeshifters. Anubis is a therianthrope. The modern therian community is much more specifically about those who feel they are an animal within. There IS no other modern therian community. You seem to be referring to some community or sect that does not exist.

If you think that therianthropy is related to having an animal totem or spirit guide, you know nothing about therianthropy. Sorry. It's just not true, and never has been. Therians may frequently be involved in pagan or shamanic traditions, but this is something they are led to by their therianthropy, not the other way around. And as I said, a therian's totem is not necessarily the same animal as their theriotype--they are NOT the same thing, and no knowledgeable therian will ever agree that they are the same thing.

I have been part of the therian community since the 90s, as I said, and I've been a participant on the Werelist (when it was run by Coyote Osborne), werenet, and other therian sites. I have a therian site as well, which has been up for many years, though it needs updating. I am also a therian, which, more than anything else, gives me some authority to speak on the matter. :P

What does that mean? I means I feel that I am a wolf. I have past-life memories of being a wolf, but I am not sure that is the reason, by itself, that I am therian. I don't pretend to know exactly what makes a person therian, but I know how I feel, and what traits I share with other therians. If you're going to write an article on what therianthropy is, you need to ask us, not make a lot of assumptions. This article was a mess. I cleaned it up, and corrected the misinformation. Don't argue those points with me, you aren't going to find elder members of the therian community who will agree with you. Maybe some misguided youngsters, but no one who's been around for a while.

I'm not saying anything controversial here, this is all WELL known stuff.

--the surly old greymuzzle,

{{WingedWolfPsion}} 21:42, 14 March 2009 (CST)

Most people used to believe that the earth was flat and that you could fall of the "Edge of the earth" if you sailed too far out to sea. What most people believe is irrelevant because time and time again majority does not make something right or true. A great many people can be deluded. If many people consider Therianthropy part of Otherkin it could be because many people remain willfully ignorant as to it's history, or simply don't care about it, or just never got exposed to anything to suggest anything otherwise.

Citing yourself to being since the 90's puts you in the time-line of when Otherkin first popped up. To tell me or anyone else that the history of the word and the history of the spirituality is irrelevant to modern times is ignorant and wrong. Of course if your first experience with the entire thing started at a time when people began to organize and took a name while ignorant to it's meaning, of course you are going to think the way you do.

Prior to the last 20 years Therianthropy dealt with a history that goes far back in human existence, and Otherkin have no business, pardon my bluntness, trying to make that irrelevant and telling people that it's past, and those who follow it (as some people many times will state in various forums) are wrong.

I'm telling it like it is. Therianthropy has an actual history that goes to the deep past, where as Otherkin only just popped up about 20 years ago. If you are going to go and talk about the neo stuff you need to acknowledge it's original history, otherwise you have no business talking about it, and it should not even be a wiki article. Besides, this is not some extinct spirituality some of you are...abusing for your own means. You act like the history, and what it pertains to is extinct. It's not. The very practices that led to the terming of the name still happen in different parts of the world.

The correct way to write this article is to acknowledge it's origins, and then explain that a internet group popped up and adopted it, and it's interpretation of the whole thing. That then sets the reader up to understand that while therian is used to describe some otherkin, Therian does not equal otherkin.

-----------------------------------------------------------
If you want to add all of that stuff on the origin of the term therianthropy, and OTHER ways the word has been used historically, then add it to the THERIANTHROPY article. THIS article is about THERIANS. The shortening of the term therianthrope ONLY applies to those who are part of the MODERN THERIAN COMMUNITY. The one that originated with AHWW back in the 90s. It does NOT refer to any sort of historical therianthropic groups or therianthropic deities, or any of that. It is a MODERN term.

I challenge you to produce a useage of the term "therian" older than 20 years. Be sure not to bother using the taxonomic interpretation of it as that is clearly irrelevent.

I also challenge you to produce some scrap of evidence of a therianthrope community existing prior to AHWW. If you cannot do it, then sit down and quit complaining. Your arguments are frankly ridiculous and have no basis in the real world. You seem to believe there were groups of shamans running around calling themselves therianthropes back in the middle ages. That's ridiculous.

Of COURSE the term 'therianthrope' already existed when AHWW came into being. The term was CHOSEN to describe real weres as "Spiritual therianthropes". It was SHORTENED to 'therianthropes', and then finally to 'therians'. This article is not about http://www.answers.com/topic/theria

It is about real weres. :P Prior to AHWW, there were people out there who might have been described by some as therianthropes. But AHWW was the first time people came together to describe THEMSELVES that way. If you believe otherwise, produce the references to prove it!

Spiritual Therianthropes = Therianthropes = Therians. That's the way it was, and that's the way it is. There ARE no other therian communities. Therian is NOT an accepted shorthand term for therianthrope in the folklore community. It belongs ONLY to the modern spiritual therianthrope community.

--the surly old greymuzzle,

{{WingedWolfPsion}} 00:00, 17 March 2009 (CST)

...
Don't bother playing the source game. You cannot even bring up sources that are not heavily moderated and written to be Bias towards the 20 year old Otherkin group, so don't bother asking me to bring up "Source older than 20 years old".

You do not see the relevance of the history of Therianthropy to the modern variant because the only thing you have been exposed to is the Neo Version for which the history is irrelevant. I have been exposed to the other varient in which the history is relevant. Now I could sit here and bat and forth all day that two variations exist and there not only one modern version but there are better things to do.

I'll come back later when I have the time and add in a section to this, dealing with the other variant. It is more productive that bickering here with you.

Talk:Therian

2009-03-17T16:00:36Z

Trpdwarf: /* Time for a few actual rennovations */

The following paragraph was removed from the main article, under the reason of being "very bias[sic]":
:In many ways, therians could be called [[were]]-lifestylers, except most therians are aggressivly against the idea of conciously assuming animal traits, a trait they feel is a hallmark of wannabes and [[lifestylers]]. Instead, they prefer to believe that the therian state is something people cannot assume.
Instead of keeping the entire pragraph out, could someone rewrite it, if possible, to just be a lot less biased and then reinsert it? Thanks, --[[User:Dmuth|Dmuth]] 19:21, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)

:That's not, in any way, an accurate representation of therians. It -should- be removed outright. {{unsigned|24.162.235.5}} 00:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

== TherianTemple.com ==

Therian Temple lewks like a dead obvious CULT to me. Cults are a SERIOUS problem in the Were-World, ESPECIALLY to young, developing therians. This one, just from the front page is DEFINATELY a Cult, notice: I do not say "coven", I say CULT. Please DO NOT replace this link. thank you to the anon who was removing it and EarthFurst who brought it to my attention. Also: for Future reference: CAREFULL WHAT YOU LINK AS A THERIAN RESOURCE!!! If it dosn't look like Werelist or something, ask some therian knowledgable people to check for you. I can't stress enough how important this is, ESPECIALLY since WikiFur was what showed mee Therian in the first place.

regards: '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]''' 03:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

-----------------
The Therian Temple is not a cult. Cults recruit, Cults force members to do things, cults have an idolized Leader...they dont do any of that.
Its very close minded to try and write off something new right away just because its not just like what you believe in.
The T.T. has members in 4 countries including members of the US Armed Forces.
None of them have ever done anythign illegal-you would have seen it on the news: "Werewolf cult kills babies" or something-but you didnt-because its justa group of people who study magic and read books-quit being so mean. ~tolerant one {{Unsigned|67.149.55.134}}

:oh really? and you are?
:Pah! whatever. We can't put it up there anyway, it's considered a scam by every therian I know (I doubt you are one, but I won't go there). Even still, I KNOW what cults do to us, so I want to keep this stuff off of wikifur, especially for what I said before. if you REALLY want to try for this, wait a week or two, the Therian Wiki is currently waiting for Wikia staff to make it, we can discuss this there. '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]'''

::I actually agree with tolerant one on this one...it is not a cult. But it is a scam, and something to be avoided.-{{Unsigned|Xainy}}

:I will state here what I said in another talk page:
Due to possible conflict of interest, I will not personally edit this article, however:
If there is reliable information needed about the Therian Temple, please go straight to the source and email me: ordovirbestia@theriantemple.com

For the record:
One thing can be certain: no TT member has ever committed a crime.
If any member was ever to do so, they would have their membership immediately revoked (we don't even allow illegal drug use).
Stating in an online resource that we are involved in ANY criminal activity is in fact a legal issue of libel / slander (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel) and legal action WILL be taken against any people making such false claims.

Peace to you all.
Magus Fenrir Therion,
Therian Temple
[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

:Regardless of how the KoolAid actually tastes, I'm going to leave links to the Temple off this article, as well as [[Therianthropy]]. The links that continue to stay are both informative resources that tell me more about therians and therianthropy. I would also advise that [[Therian Temple]] gets a heavy overhaul so you're not selling the site or shilling your product on the wiki. Also, please do not come in here touting the law stick. All of you behave, please. You too, cchristian. --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 17:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:Perhaps you can overhaul that article. As I stated, I will not be editing Therian related articles due to POV / Conflict of interest issues.
The "Law stick", as you call it, was necessary at the time, due to someone writing in that "cults like Therian Temple kill people", which is an obviously libelous claim, which can easily be proven false by simply doing even minor research.

We do not recruit new members or "sell" anything. Obviously, as a new group, we are not as big and rich as the Christian church that we can give out printed Bibles for free like the Gideons, and the only cost in the TT is the price of the hardcover book, which cost money to print and ship.There is no advertising anywhere for the TT, in print OR online, due to the fact that we wish for only genuinely interested people who have come across it on their own to get involved.

We keep to ourselves generally. Frankly, I think other TT members would agree that we would have preferred to keep somewhat private, but with all these cruel lies being put on highly trafficked sites, I'm sure you can see why some amount of self-defense was needed.

I am a very friendly and reasonable person, and I can't see why people don't just contact the TT when they have these types of serious questions / accusations about us and our activities. Our email is right on the site, and anyone is welcome to ask questions. I mean, seriously, if you actually thought a group was participating in killing or anything close to that, wouldn't you investigate it, or at least contact the authorities to see if any "werewolf murders" had ever occurred? To just say it in a wiki page is clearly just an attempt to make a minority group of adherents look bad publicly for whatever reasons / agendas.

I do respect and Thank you, Kendricks, for keeping an objective "wiki" type of perspective on this issue, when so many others have been editing in their own personal views into related articles.
[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
:Although you can threaten with legal threats, we would ask that you [[Legal threats|do not for these reasons]]. As for your print issues, if this is a religious group, you can ask for tithing or simply ask for donations. Forcing someone to buy their way into your religion sits wrong on MANY people, including me. Thank you for understanding the need for an NPOV, however the same standards are expected of you and your roommate as well. Making thinly veiled jabs and attacks on other sites do not lend well to your claims of good faith. Quite simply to quote religiously, "[[Wikipedia:Golden Rule|do unto others as you would have them do unto you]]" and "turn the other cheek."--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 02:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

:Dear Sir,(Madame?) I believe you are very confused, or being fed misinformation somehow.
No one is "forced" to buy or do anything.
Also, we are not a Christian group, and do not and will never ask for tithing (10% of people's yearly income, as asked by "tithing" churches is a LOT more than the cost of one copy of a hardcover book). No one can "buy their way into" any religion, either they believe in it and follow it or the don't.
Obviously, though, you would want people to know what you are talking about when referring to the book.
Christian churches don't require new member to buy their book because ther bible is Readily available anywhere, due to hundreds of YEARS of mass distribution
What "jabs" are you talking about?
Defending the group of which I am a member by saying that we do not allow illegal activity is an attack on someone? Who? How?
Also, we are not a Christian group, and thus, are not bound by the Christian "golden rule", and personally, I see it more fit to "do unto others as THEY HAVE DONE TO YOU". If someone insults me with false accusations, and is somehow insulted by the fact that their accusations have been publicly proven false, this is only fair game.
I don't see it as an attack to protect myself and my group from slanderous lies being spread about us.
This is beginning to seem like a gang-up tactic on here, with a bunch people forcing me having to explain things that are already clearly stated on the TT site.
I hope you do plan to make this site and its information remain objective and not let people's personal views blur the line between some people's fantasy and reality.[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

:I'm not ganging up on anyone or anything. I'm staying neutral. That should have been honest when I suspended Christian for attacking you. When I said "buying" one's way into a religion, I was referring to the fact that to join your religion, you have to give someone $30 bucks. Otherwise you can't get in. It's like any other one of those television evangelists who will share the secrets of God with you for 5 easy payments. The jabs I referred to is your edits to Werelist. The edits have been cleaned up there. As for the Golden Rule, it doesn't necessarily have to be Christian. It's just morally good sense. Retaliation like you seem to support is the reason that this conflict will likely continue on. Break the cycle, dude. Otherwise, it will be assumed that any edits you make on this wiki will be in bad faith and will be automatically reverted.--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 01:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:Maybe you overlooked a main point:
"Obviously, you would want people to know what you are talking about when referring to the book." --Meaning-it would be unfair & deceitful to allow people to participate in a "religion" if some of them did not have the book and some did. Requiring that people read the book first helps make sure that everyone involved knows what they are getting into / supporting. That should be easy to understand.
Again: Christian churches don't require new members to buy their book because their bible is Readily available anywhere, due to hundreds of YEARS of mass distribution, and MOST people have already read or at least have a copy of the Holy Bible.
Also, most christian groups pursue a tax-exempt status, and therefore many materials are subsidized. We, however, do not pursue a tax-exempt status, thus we pay full cost for our materials, and pay taxes on them. I don't see how anyone could consider that to be anything like television evangelists who are using a widely available text (the Holy Bible) and who do not pay taxes. [[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
:You know it's not just Christianity that does this, you know. :-) Most religions fall under that tax-exemption. You should investigate it yourself. And I don't think you pay attention to TV evangelists who hawk wares like their own personal books or my personal favorite was the prayer hankie. The point I was making earlier is that churchs, synagogues and mosques tend to operate due to DONATIONS by the members, not by paying dues or by paying an entrance fee. You claim to have this mass flock in 4 countries. It should be no trouble at all ask for donations because really what are your expenses? You can get your book tossed off a vanity press or if you really want to be new age, have it available on the good ol Internet. Beyond, there's website upkeep and...? Anything beyond that and you MIGHT be setting your sights too high too soon. :) My other point is your line about the people reading the book first before they know what they're getting into. However they've already paid their $30 and a little voice tells me that you probably don't offer refunds. Just like the TV evangelists. Stupid prayer hankie. --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 18:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:Why do people keep acting like $30 is a lot of money? What are you people homeless or something? I spend $30 on lunch. Analogy: If I wanted to check out a musician's latest CD, I would only be given minor samples of what it contained (radio songs,myspace page, music video etc.) , and would have to buy the CD to hear the rest of it. Should I get a refund if I end up only liking one song on the CD? NO, because it cost money to make the CD, and I agreed to take the risk that I may or may not like the whole CD. You are being ridiculous, and you sound like a communist...-[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
::Actually $30 may be a bit overspending on your lunch. I think I pay 5 bucks at my local hot dog stand. :-) And for many furries, otherkin and therian, $30 bucks can be a frivolous expenditure. And, btw, noting your analogy, you don't offer clips and snippets. Maybe that'd be an idea?--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 22:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

:If one views "Temple Mission" on our site there are very basic excerpts from the Therian Bible there, for which we have chosen the more "stern" elements to filter out anyone potentially not prepared to deal with our form of Practices, thus those who buy the book already expect order and rules, and no one has ever asked for a "refund".
And, personally, I do not eat "hot dogs", or any other animals, and would never risk my own health on a meal costing merely $5. Nor would I waste my time on a book that needs to be given out for free, as if the group is desperate for members. Books also can constitute mind food... If You are what you eat, and you eat cheap garbage...well, then....

-[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

::Sorry to inturrupt, but don't you ''claim'' to be a were-WOLF??? How could you stand to "not eat any animals"? I mean, some of us even drool over ROAD KILL sometimes. I've broken the rule somewhere in the Torah saying "though shalt not drink blood" a few times, simply because I can't resist the urges. You come along and say that you are a Wolf therian, yet you insult the consumption of meat as if it disgusts you in some way. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you are being entirely truthful here... '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]'''

Indeed one could consider it suspicious, but I do know many predatory therians that do not consume meat. One can contol one's instincts in an effort to control the animal within. As a wolf therian, I refuse to eat most meat, as most meat around here is factory farmed and disgusting. I eat only meat that I myself kill, and so I recieve it roughly once a week. I'm simply saying, even a carnivorous therianthrope can refrain from eating meat if they so wish it.

== Therians don't bring their animal into their daily lives? Dowhaa? ==

''"Therians differ from the Furry lifestyle in that they do not try to mimic or bring their animal into their daily lives. Therians understand their nature as being -human- and -animal- and as thus feel no need to pretend or 'play the role' of the animal, save in some circumstances."''

While this is certainly typical of a fair number of therians, I personally know several that do not fall into this generalization. While they do indeed understand their nature of being both human and animal, by no means does this mean that their phenotype does not make itself apparent in everyday life. Now, I don't mean to say they howl at the moon or things like that, but their animal does tend to make itself visible in their mannerisms and habits. This should be reworded to reflect this diversity or removed entirely. [[User:Baral'heia|Baral'heia Stormdancer]] 07:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I do agree with this. Stating that all therians behave in such a manner simply is not true. I in no way hide the wolf within me, and as such it tends to show, especially in my personality and the habits I form.

== Two things I feel necessary to bring up. ==

--[[User:Trpdwarf|Trpdwarf]] 18:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that it is a bit strange to try to put a Physical shift into this. The Physical shift that is spoken of more tied to Lycanthropy which is the past has been tied to Ergot(a fungus), Rabies in humans, and or a fear of people who appeared overly hairy, or seemed overtly bestial. It is stated in the article the aggressive stance towards so called P shifting therefore it makes better sense to not have the entire thing there at all.

Also this article needs to not have otherkin inflections in it. This article is about Therians therefore things related to Otherkin need to not be here. Now maybe some people who identify as Therian think that being Therian is about having a soul other than human, but I know more than a few long standing Therians who feel quite the opposite. They do not make the claim to having souls other than human. Perhaps it is better that the idea of "Animal soul other than human" is kept out of the article altogether.
EDIT: Also this

"A distinction between mythical therians and otherkin can be found however, as many otherkin seem to believe they have a 'past life' or an 'alternate existence/persona' which makes up their otherkin nature. Therians do not see their animalistic nature as being separate from themselves and as thus many of these types of mythicals have joined therian community."

I want to know where this is coming from? I have removed it and put it here. Who ever put it there, I'd like an explainion of it. A distinction between "Mythical Therians?". That means what? Therians usually associate with animals that are real. AkA, they have the totem of the crow, the wolf, the coyote, ect. Also a thorough explanation of the rest is wanted as well. Again, the article is about Therians, and Therian does not equal Otherkin.

== Time for a few actual rennovations ==

I added a few things, changed a few things, and removed a few things. Therianthropy does not (for example), have anything at all to do with animal totems, or invoking animal spirits--and it never has. As otherkin are people who feel they are other than human, therians most certainly are a type of otherkin. A lot of the best were sites on the web have fallen into disrepair, been lost, or come under new management in recent years. We've come a long way since the days of AHWW, but we're at a bit of a low point right now, community wise. I see a lot of misconceptions and misinformation floating around.

I'm not sure where the idea came from that otherkin are some sort of completely seperate phenomenon, but apart from therians having known animals as their other side, and otherkin having mythical/fantastical creatures as their other side, there is little difference. The two communities did 'evolve' seperately, but there has been a lot of overlap over the years, and I challenge anyone to come up with a point of significant difference between the two. Some otherkin 'shift' just as therians do, and some therians do not shift (contherianthropy). There is no clearcut line.

The entire lot of descriptions of shifting were wrong, so I have corrected them. Therians do not need to use drugs or meditation to shift. I'm sure there are a few out there who do, but they do not need to, and I see no point in mentioning what is not a common practice. Shifting is generally easy for therians, if we are in the right setting. A person who has to take drugs to do it is either not therian, or has serious psychological problems.

--the surly old greymuzzle,

{{WingedWolfPsion}} 19:51, 12 March 2009 (CST)

This thread is about Therians. This thread is not about Otherkin. Therefore Otherkin beliefs should not show up here but rather in the Otherkin wiki.

As for the person going on about "Therians are not about animal totems" blah-blah-blah...as long as I have known about Therians, it has been nothing but about, totem animals, or animal spirit guides. W

There is a huge difference between Otherkin and therians. Therianthropy has a history that goes all the way back to the Greeks, and further. The Greeks only coined the term.It would make sense the only reason they came up with the term is due to being exposed to perhaps African culture, and Pagan cultures during trade relations. What they came across were people who has shamanistic, or druidistic in form, hence the translation "Beast human" or "Beast people". That's the history of the word, but good luck finding a source that was not edited by Otherkin.

The basic generalization we can make is that it was to describe people who thought they can either turn into an animal, or people who believed that other people could, or people who believed they descended from animals turned human. If you are going to turn around and say "You are a therian" today you cannot exactly say you transform into something physically. That's crazy. Agree or disagree? If you want to claim Therian by soul, it would make sense you would also have to claim that you are an animal that physically turned into an human and thus have a animal soul. There is nothing in the associated history from what I can see that leads to "You are born with different soul". That's really an otherkin thing. Now that is what otherkin claim, that Therian is about "having a animal soul" but I look at history and possible origins of words and I cannot agree. At the least there should be a distinction between the original modern therian sect, and the neo sect that has started from Otherkin.

------------------------------
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Therianthropy IN THIS CONTEXT has a history that goes all the way back to AHWW Usenet newsgroup, and that's as far as it goes. It surely existed before then, but there was no community. Historical interpretations of the term have nothing to do with modern 'spiritual therianthropy' or the therian community. Therians are considered to be a type of otherkin by most. The only difference is what I have said--the type of creature one's inner self is. Nothing else. If you believe there is another difference, please share that difference with us. "There is a huge difference" and citing a lot of things about the Greeks (you actually said nothing specific at all) doesn't cut it. Tell us exactly what you believe the difference is. Keeping mind that therianthropy is a modern phenomenon with an extensive modern community.

Your interpretation of the word therianthropy has no historical basis. The word is merely used to describe any sort of animal people or shapeshifters. Anubis is a therianthrope. The modern therian community is much more specifically about those who feel they are an animal within. There IS no other modern therian community. You seem to be referring to some community or sect that does not exist.

If you think that therianthropy is related to having an animal totem or spirit guide, you know nothing about therianthropy. Sorry. It's just not true, and never has been. Therians may frequently be involved in pagan or shamanic traditions, but this is something they are led to by their therianthropy, not the other way around. And as I said, a therian's totem is not necessarily the same animal as their theriotype--they are NOT the same thing, and no knowledgeable therian will ever agree that they are the same thing.

I have been part of the therian community since the 90s, as I said, and I've been a participant on the Werelist (when it was run by Coyote Osborne), werenet, and other therian sites. I have a therian site as well, which has been up for many years, though it needs updating. I am also a therian, which, more than anything else, gives me some authority to speak on the matter. :P

What does that mean? I means I feel that I am a wolf. I have past-life memories of being a wolf, but I am not sure that is the reason, by itself, that I am therian. I don't pretend to know exactly what makes a person therian, but I know how I feel, and what traits I share with other therians. If you're going to write an article on what therianthropy is, you need to ask us, not make a lot of assumptions. This article was a mess. I cleaned it up, and corrected the misinformation. Don't argue those points with me, you aren't going to find elder members of the therian community who will agree with you. Maybe some misguided youngsters, but no one who's been around for a while.

I'm not saying anything controversial here, this is all WELL known stuff.

--the surly old greymuzzle,

{{WingedWolfPsion}} 21:42, 14 March 2009 (CST)

Most people used to believe that the earth was flat and that you could fall of the "Edge of the earth" if you sailed too far out to sea. What most people believe is irrelevant because time and time again majority does not make something right or true. A great many people can be deluded. If many people consider Therianthropy part of Otherkin it could be because many people remain willfully ignorant as to it's history, or simply don't care about it, or just never got exposed to anything to suggest anything otherwise.

Citing yourself to being since the 90's puts you in the time-line of when Otherkin first popped up. To tell me or anyone else that the history of the word and the history of the spirituality is irrelevant to modern times is ignorant and wrong. Of course if your first experience with the entire thing started at a time when people began to organize and took a name while ignorant to it's meaning, of course you are going to think the way you do.

Prior to the last 20 years Therianthropy dealt with a history that goes far back in human existence, and Otherkin have no business, pardon my bluntness, trying to make that irrelevant and telling people that it's past, and those who follow it (as some people many times will state in various forums) are wrong.

I'm telling it like it is. Therianthropy has an actual history that goes to the deep past, where as Otherkin only just popped up about 20 years ago. If you are going to go and talk about the neo stuff you need to acknowledge it's original history, otherwise you have no business talking about it, and it should not even be a wiki article. Besides, this is not some extinct spirituality some of you are...abusing for your own means. You act like the history, and what it pertains to is extinct. It's not. The very practices that led to the terming of the name still happen in different parts of the world.

The correct way to write this article is to acknowledge it's origins, and then explain that a internet group popped up and adopted it, and it's interpretation of the whole thing. That then sets the reader up to understand that while therian is used to describe some otherkin, Therian does not equal otherkin.

-----------------------------------------------------------
If you want to add all of that stuff on the origin of the term therianthropy, and OTHER ways the word has been used historically, then add it to the THERIANTHROPY article. THIS article is about THERIANS. The shortening of the term therianthrope ONLY applies to those who are part of the MODERN THERIAN COMMUNITY. The one that originated with AHWW back in the 90s. It does NOT refer to any sort of historical therianthropic groups or therianthropic deities, or any of that. It is a MODERN term.

I challenge you to produce a useage of the term "therian" older than 20 years. Be sure not to bother using the taxonomic interpretation of it as that is clearly irrelevent.

I also challenge you to produce some scrap of evidence of a therianthrope community existing prior to AHWW. If you cannot do it, then sit down and quit complaining. Your arguments are frankly ridiculous and have no basis in the real world. You seem to believe there were groups of shamans running around calling themselves therianthropes back in the middle ages. That's ridiculous.

Of COURSE the term 'therianthrope' already existed when AHWW came into being. The term was CHOSEN to describe real weres as "Spiritual therianthropes". It was SHORTENED to 'therianthropes', and then finally to 'therians'. This article is not about http://www.answers.com/topic/theria

It is about real weres. :P Prior to AHWW, there were people out there who might have been described by some as therianthropes. But AHWW was the first time people came together to describe THEMSELVES that way. If you believe otherwise, produce the references to prove it!

Spiritual Therianthropes = Therianthropes = Therians. That's the way it was, and that's the way it is. There ARE no other therian communities. Therian is NOT an accepted shorthand term for therianthrope in the folklore community. It belongs ONLY to the modern spiritual therianthrope community.

--the surly old greymuzzle,

{{WingedWolfPsion}} 00:00, 17 March 2009 (CST)

...
Don't bother playing the source game. You cannot even bring up sources that are not heavily moderated and written to be Bias towards the 20 year old Otherkin group, so don't bother asking me to bring up "Source older than 20 years old".

You do not see the relevence of the history of Therianthropy to the modern variant because the only thing you have been exposed to is the Neo Version for which the history is irrelevant. I happen to know a handful of non otherkin Therians who do not follow the otherkin version and the history of Therianthropy is relevant to them. The early Internet sites that Otherkin now infest are the only link to the original group as per the internet is concerned but Otherkin did a fine job of desecrating that.

Now come up with a better argument than "Well, if you cannot find anything that is older than me STFU". It's laughable. Try actually seeking out the Original Modern Therians and open your eyes for a change.

Talk:Therian

2009-03-15T04:20:11Z

Trpdwarf: /* Time for a few actual rennovations */

Talk:Therian

2009-03-15T04:17:01Z

Trpdwarf: /* Time for a few actual rennovations */

The following paragraph was removed from the main article, under the reason of being "very bias[sic]":
:In many ways, therians could be called [[were]]-lifestylers, except most therians are aggressivly against the idea of conciously assuming animal traits, a trait they feel is a hallmark of wannabes and [[lifestylers]]. Instead, they prefer to believe that the therian state is something people cannot assume.
Instead of keeping the entire pragraph out, could someone rewrite it, if possible, to just be a lot less biased and then reinsert it? Thanks, --[[User:Dmuth|Dmuth]] 19:21, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)

:That's not, in any way, an accurate representation of therians. It -should- be removed outright. {{unsigned|24.162.235.5}} 00:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

== TherianTemple.com ==

Therian Temple lewks like a dead obvious CULT to me. Cults are a SERIOUS problem in the Were-World, ESPECIALLY to young, developing therians. This one, just from the front page is DEFINATELY a Cult, notice: I do not say "coven", I say CULT. Please DO NOT replace this link. thank you to the anon who was removing it and EarthFurst who brought it to my attention. Also: for Future reference: CAREFULL WHAT YOU LINK AS A THERIAN RESOURCE!!! If it dosn't look like Werelist or something, ask some therian knowledgable people to check for you. I can't stress enough how important this is, ESPECIALLY since WikiFur was what showed mee Therian in the first place.

regards: '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]''' 03:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

-----------------
The Therian Temple is not a cult. Cults recruit, Cults force members to do things, cults have an idolized Leader...they dont do any of that.
Its very close minded to try and write off something new right away just because its not just like what you believe in.
The T.T. has members in 4 countries including members of the US Armed Forces.
None of them have ever done anythign illegal-you would have seen it on the news: "Werewolf cult kills babies" or something-but you didnt-because its justa group of people who study magic and read books-quit being so mean. ~tolerant one {{Unsigned|67.149.55.134}}

:oh really? and you are?
:Pah! whatever. We can't put it up there anyway, it's considered a scam by every therian I know (I doubt you are one, but I won't go there). Even still, I KNOW what cults do to us, so I want to keep this stuff off of wikifur, especially for what I said before. if you REALLY want to try for this, wait a week or two, the Therian Wiki is currently waiting for Wikia staff to make it, we can discuss this there. '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]'''

::I actually agree with tolerant one on this one...it is not a cult. But it is a scam, and something to be avoided.-{{Unsigned|Xainy}}

:I will state here what I said in another talk page:
Due to possible conflict of interest, I will not personally edit this article, however:
If there is reliable information needed about the Therian Temple, please go straight to the source and email me: ordovirbestia@theriantemple.com

For the record:
One thing can be certain: no TT member has ever committed a crime.
If any member was ever to do so, they would have their membership immediately revoked (we don't even allow illegal drug use).
Stating in an online resource that we are involved in ANY criminal activity is in fact a legal issue of libel / slander (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel) and legal action WILL be taken against any people making such false claims.

Peace to you all.
Magus Fenrir Therion,
Therian Temple
[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

:Regardless of how the KoolAid actually tastes, I'm going to leave links to the Temple off this article, as well as [[Therianthropy]]. The links that continue to stay are both informative resources that tell me more about therians and therianthropy. I would also advise that [[Therian Temple]] gets a heavy overhaul so you're not selling the site or shilling your product on the wiki. Also, please do not come in here touting the law stick. All of you behave, please. You too, cchristian. --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 17:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:Perhaps you can overhaul that article. As I stated, I will not be editing Therian related articles due to POV / Conflict of interest issues.
The "Law stick", as you call it, was necessary at the time, due to someone writing in that "cults like Therian Temple kill people", which is an obviously libelous claim, which can easily be proven false by simply doing even minor research.

We do not recruit new members or "sell" anything. Obviously, as a new group, we are not as big and rich as the Christian church that we can give out printed Bibles for free like the Gideons, and the only cost in the TT is the price of the hardcover book, which cost money to print and ship.There is no advertising anywhere for the TT, in print OR online, due to the fact that we wish for only genuinely interested people who have come across it on their own to get involved.

We keep to ourselves generally. Frankly, I think other TT members would agree that we would have preferred to keep somewhat private, but with all these cruel lies being put on highly trafficked sites, I'm sure you can see why some amount of self-defense was needed.

I am a very friendly and reasonable person, and I can't see why people don't just contact the TT when they have these types of serious questions / accusations about us and our activities. Our email is right on the site, and anyone is welcome to ask questions. I mean, seriously, if you actually thought a group was participating in killing or anything close to that, wouldn't you investigate it, or at least contact the authorities to see if any "werewolf murders" had ever occurred? To just say it in a wiki page is clearly just an attempt to make a minority group of adherents look bad publicly for whatever reasons / agendas.

I do respect and Thank you, Kendricks, for keeping an objective "wiki" type of perspective on this issue, when so many others have been editing in their own personal views into related articles.
[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
:Although you can threaten with legal threats, we would ask that you [[Legal threats|do not for these reasons]]. As for your print issues, if this is a religious group, you can ask for tithing or simply ask for donations. Forcing someone to buy their way into your religion sits wrong on MANY people, including me. Thank you for understanding the need for an NPOV, however the same standards are expected of you and your roommate as well. Making thinly veiled jabs and attacks on other sites do not lend well to your claims of good faith. Quite simply to quote religiously, "[[Wikipedia:Golden Rule|do unto others as you would have them do unto you]]" and "turn the other cheek."--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 02:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

:Dear Sir,(Madame?) I believe you are very confused, or being fed misinformation somehow.
No one is "forced" to buy or do anything.
Also, we are not a Christian group, and do not and will never ask for tithing (10% of people's yearly income, as asked by "tithing" churches is a LOT more than the cost of one copy of a hardcover book). No one can "buy their way into" any religion, either they believe in it and follow it or the don't.
Obviously, though, you would want people to know what you are talking about when referring to the book.
Christian churches don't require new member to buy their book because ther bible is Readily available anywhere, due to hundreds of YEARS of mass distribution
What "jabs" are you talking about?
Defending the group of which I am a member by saying that we do not allow illegal activity is an attack on someone? Who? How?
Also, we are not a Christian group, and thus, are not bound by the Christian "golden rule", and personally, I see it more fit to "do unto others as THEY HAVE DONE TO YOU". If someone insults me with false accusations, and is somehow insulted by the fact that their accusations have been publicly proven false, this is only fair game.
I don't see it as an attack to protect myself and my group from slanderous lies being spread about us.
This is beginning to seem like a gang-up tactic on here, with a bunch people forcing me having to explain things that are already clearly stated on the TT site.
I hope you do plan to make this site and its information remain objective and not let people's personal views blur the line between some people's fantasy and reality.[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

:I'm not ganging up on anyone or anything. I'm staying neutral. That should have been honest when I suspended Christian for attacking you. When I said "buying" one's way into a religion, I was referring to the fact that to join your religion, you have to give someone $30 bucks. Otherwise you can't get in. It's like any other one of those television evangelists who will share the secrets of God with you for 5 easy payments. The jabs I referred to is your edits to Werelist. The edits have been cleaned up there. As for the Golden Rule, it doesn't necessarily have to be Christian. It's just morally good sense. Retaliation like you seem to support is the reason that this conflict will likely continue on. Break the cycle, dude. Otherwise, it will be assumed that any edits you make on this wiki will be in bad faith and will be automatically reverted.--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 01:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:Maybe you overlooked a main point:
"Obviously, you would want people to know what you are talking about when referring to the book." --Meaning-it would be unfair & deceitful to allow people to participate in a "religion" if some of them did not have the book and some did. Requiring that people read the book first helps make sure that everyone involved knows what they are getting into / supporting. That should be easy to understand.
Again: Christian churches don't require new members to buy their book because their bible is Readily available anywhere, due to hundreds of YEARS of mass distribution, and MOST people have already read or at least have a copy of the Holy Bible.
Also, most christian groups pursue a tax-exempt status, and therefore many materials are subsidized. We, however, do not pursue a tax-exempt status, thus we pay full cost for our materials, and pay taxes on them. I don't see how anyone could consider that to be anything like television evangelists who are using a widely available text (the Holy Bible) and who do not pay taxes. [[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
:You know it's not just Christianity that does this, you know. :-) Most religions fall under that tax-exemption. You should investigate it yourself. And I don't think you pay attention to TV evangelists who hawk wares like their own personal books or my personal favorite was the prayer hankie. The point I was making earlier is that churchs, synagogues and mosques tend to operate due to DONATIONS by the members, not by paying dues or by paying an entrance fee. You claim to have this mass flock in 4 countries. It should be no trouble at all ask for donations because really what are your expenses? You can get your book tossed off a vanity press or if you really want to be new age, have it available on the good ol Internet. Beyond, there's website upkeep and...? Anything beyond that and you MIGHT be setting your sights too high too soon. :) My other point is your line about the people reading the book first before they know what they're getting into. However they've already paid their $30 and a little voice tells me that you probably don't offer refunds. Just like the TV evangelists. Stupid prayer hankie. --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 18:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:Why do people keep acting like $30 is a lot of money? What are you people homeless or something? I spend $30 on lunch. Analogy: If I wanted to check out a musician's latest CD, I would only be given minor samples of what it contained (radio songs,myspace page, music video etc.) , and would have to buy the CD to hear the rest of it. Should I get a refund if I end up only liking one song on the CD? NO, because it cost money to make the CD, and I agreed to take the risk that I may or may not like the whole CD. You are being ridiculous, and you sound like a communist...-[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
::Actually $30 may be a bit overspending on your lunch. I think I pay 5 bucks at my local hot dog stand. :-) And for many furries, otherkin and therian, $30 bucks can be a frivolous expenditure. And, btw, noting your analogy, you don't offer clips and snippets. Maybe that'd be an idea?--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 22:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

:If one views "Temple Mission" on our site there are very basic excerpts from the Therian Bible there, for which we have chosen the more "stern" elements to filter out anyone potentially not prepared to deal with our form of Practices, thus those who buy the book already expect order and rules, and no one has ever asked for a "refund".
And, personally, I do not eat "hot dogs", or any other animals, and would never risk my own health on a meal costing merely $5. Nor would I waste my time on a book that needs to be given out for free, as if the group is desperate for members. Books also can constitute mind food... If You are what you eat, and you eat cheap garbage...well, then....

-[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

::Sorry to inturrupt, but don't you ''claim'' to be a were-WOLF??? How could you stand to "not eat any animals"? I mean, some of us even drool over ROAD KILL sometimes. I've broken the rule somewhere in the Torah saying "though shalt not drink blood" a few times, simply because I can't resist the urges. You come along and say that you are a Wolf therian, yet you insult the consumption of meat as if it disgusts you in some way. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you are being entirely truthful here... '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]'''

Indeed one could consider it suspicious, but I do know many predatory therians that do not consume meat. One can contol one's instincts in an effort to control the animal within. As a wolf therian, I refuse to eat most meat, as most meat around here is factory farmed and disgusting. I eat only meat that I myself kill, and so I recieve it roughly once a week. I'm simply saying, even a carnivorous therianthrope can refrain from eating meat if they so wish it.

== Therians don't bring their animal into their daily lives? Dowhaa? ==

''"Therians differ from the Furry lifestyle in that they do not try to mimic or bring their animal into their daily lives. Therians understand their nature as being -human- and -animal- and as thus feel no need to pretend or 'play the role' of the animal, save in some circumstances."''

While this is certainly typical of a fair number of therians, I personally know several that do not fall into this generalization. While they do indeed understand their nature of being both human and animal, by no means does this mean that their phenotype does not make itself apparent in everyday life. Now, I don't mean to say they howl at the moon or things like that, but their animal does tend to make itself visible in their mannerisms and habits. This should be reworded to reflect this diversity or removed entirely. [[User:Baral'heia|Baral'heia Stormdancer]] 07:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I do agree with this. Stating that all therians behave in such a manner simply is not true. I in no way hide the wolf within me, and as such it tends to show, especially in my personality and the habits I form.

== Two things I feel necessary to bring up. ==

--[[User:Trpdwarf|Trpdwarf]] 18:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that it is a bit strange to try to put a Physical shift into this. The Physical shift that is spoken of more tied to Lycanthropy which is the past has been tied to Ergot(a fungus), Rabies in humans, and or a fear of people who appeared overly hairy, or seemed overtly bestial. It is stated in the article the aggressive stance towards so called P shifting therefore it makes better sense to not have the entire thing there at all.

Also this article needs to not have otherkin inflections in it. This article is about Therians therefore things related to Otherkin need to not be here. Now maybe some people who identify as Therian think that being Therian is about having a soul other than human, but I know more than a few long standing Therians who feel quite the opposite. They do not make the claim to having souls other than human. Perhaps it is better that the idea of "Animal soul other than human" is kept out of the article altogether.
EDIT: Also this

"A distinction between mythical therians and otherkin can be found however, as many otherkin seem to believe they have a 'past life' or an 'alternate existence/persona' which makes up their otherkin nature. Therians do not see their animalistic nature as being separate from themselves and as thus many of these types of mythicals have joined therian community."

I want to know where this is coming from? I have removed it and put it here. Who ever put it there, I'd like an explainion of it. A distinction between "Mythical Therians?". That means what? Therians usually associate with animals that are real. AkA, they have the totem of the crow, the wolf, the coyote, ect. Also a thorough explanation of the rest is wanted as well. Again, the article is about Therians, and Therian does not equal Otherkin.

== Time for a few actual rennovations ==

I added a few things, changed a few things, and removed a few things. Therianthropy does not (for example), have anything at all to do with animal totems, or invoking animal spirits--and it never has. As otherkin are people who feel they are other than human, therians most certainly are a type of otherkin. A lot of the best were sites on the web have fallen into disrepair, been lost, or come under new management in recent years. We've come a long way since the days of AHWW, but we're at a bit of a low point right now, community wise. I see a lot of misconceptions and misinformation floating around.

I'm not sure where the idea came from that otherkin are some sort of completely seperate phenomenon, but apart from therians having known animals as their other side, and otherkin having mythical/fantastical creatures as their other side, there is little difference. The two communities did 'evolve' seperately, but there has been a lot of overlap over the years, and I challenge anyone to come up with a point of significant difference between the two. Some otherkin 'shift' just as therians do, and some therians do not shift (contherianthropy). There is no clearcut line.

The entire lot of descriptions of shifting were wrong, so I have corrected them. Therians do not need to use drugs or meditation to shift. I'm sure there are a few out there who do, but they do not need to, and I see no point in mentioning what is not a common practice. Shifting is generally easy for therians, if we are in the right setting. A person who has to take drugs to do it is either not therian, or has serious psychological problems.

--the surly old greymuzzle,

{{WingedWolfPsion}} 19:51, 12 March 2009 (CST)

This thread is about Therians. This thread is not about Otherkin. Therefore Otherkin beliefs should not show up here but rather in the Otherkin wiki.

As for the person going on about "Therians are not about animal totems" blah-blah-blah...as long as I have known about Therians, it has been nothing but about, totem animals, or animal spirit guides. W

There is a huge difference between Otherkin and therians. Therianthropy has a history that goes all the way back to the Greeks, and further. The Greeks only coined the term.It would make sense the only reason they came up with the term is due to being exposed to perhaps African culture, and Pagan cultures during trade relations. What they came across were people who has shamanistic, or druidistic in form, hence the translation "Beast human" or "Beast people". That's the history of the word, but good luck finding a source that was not edited by Otherkin.

The basic generalization we can make is that it was to describe people who thought they can either turn into an animal, or people who believed that other people could, or people who believed they descended from animals turned human. If you are going to turn around and say "You are a therian" today you cannot exactly say you transform into something physically. That's crazy. Agree or disagree? If you want to claim Therian by soul, it would make sense you would also have to claim that you are an animal that physically turned into an human and thus have a animal soul. There is nothing in the associated history from what I can see that leads to "You are born with different soul". That's really an otherkin thing. Now that is what otherkin claim, that Therian is about "having a animal soul" but I look at history and possible origins of words and I cannot agree. At the least there should be a distinction between the original modern therian sect, and the neo sect that has started from Otherkin.

------------------------------
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Therianthropy IN THIS CONTEXT has a history that goes all the way back to AHWW Usenet newsgroup, and that's as far as it goes. It surely existed before then, but there was no community. Historical interpretations of the term have nothing to do with modern 'spiritual therianthropy' or the therian community. Therians are considered to be a type of otherkin by most. The only difference is what I have said--the type of creature one's inner self is. Nothing else. If you believe there is another difference, please share that difference with us. "There is a huge difference" and citing a lot of things about the Greeks (you actually said nothing specific at all) doesn't cut it. Tell us exactly what you believe the difference is. Keeping mind that therianthropy is a modern phenomenon with an extensive modern community.

Your interpretation of the word therianthropy has no historical basis. The word is merely used to describe any sort of animal people or shapeshifters. Anubis is a therianthrope. The modern therian community is much more specifically about those who feel they are an animal within. There IS no other modern therian community. You seem to be referring to some community or sect that does not exist.

If you think that therianthropy is related to having an animal totem or spirit guide, you know nothing about therianthropy. Sorry. It's just not true, and never has been. Therians may frequently be involved in pagan or shamanic traditions, but this is something they are led to by their therianthropy, not the other way around. And as I said, a therian's totem is not necessarily the same animal as their theriotype--they are NOT the same thing, and no knowledgeable therian will ever agree that they are the same thing.

I have been part of the therian community since the 90s, as I said, and I've been a participant on the Werelist (when it was run by Coyote Osborne), werenet, and other therian sites. I have a therian site as well, which has been up for many years, though it needs updating. I am also a therian, which, more than anything else, gives me some authority to speak on the matter. :P

What does that mean? I means I feel that I am a wolf. I have past-life memories of being a wolf, but I am not sure that is the reason, by itself, that I am therian. I don't pretend to know exactly what makes a person therian, but I know how I feel, and what traits I share with other therians. If you're going to write an article on what therianthropy is, you need to ask us, not make a lot of assumptions. This article was a mess. I cleaned it up, and corrected the misinformation. Don't argue those points with me, you aren't going to find elder members of the therian community who will agree with you. Maybe some misguided youngsters, but no one who's been around for a while.

I'm not saying anything controversial here, this is all WELL known stuff.

--the surly old greymuzzle,

{{WingedWolfPsion}} 21:42, 14 March 2009 (CST)

Most people used to believe that the earth was flat and that you could fall of the "Edge of the earth" if you sailed too far out to sea. What most people believe is irrelevant because time and time again majority does not make something right or true. A great many people can be deluded. If many people consider Therianthropy part of Otherkin it is because many people remain willfully ignorant as to it's history, or simply don't care about it, or just never got exposed to anything to suggest anything otherwise.

Citing yourself to being since the 90's puts you in the time-line of when Otherkin first popped up. To tell me or anyone else that the history of the word and the history of the spirituality is irrelevant to modern times is ignorant and wrong. Of course if your first experience with the entire thing started at a time when people began to organize and took a name, ignorant to it's meaning, of course you are going to think the way you do.

Prior to the last 20 years Therianthropy dealt with a history that goes far back in human existance, and Otherkin have no business, pardon my bluntness, trying to make that irrelevent and telling people that it's past, and those who follow it (as some people many times will state in various forums) are wrong.

I'm telling it like it is. Therianthropy has an actual history. If you are going to go and talk about the neo stuff you need to acknowledge it's original history, otherwise you have no business talking about it, and it should not even be a wiki article. Besides, this is not some extinct spirituality some of you are...abusing for your own means. You act like the history, and what it pertains to is extinct. It's not. The very practices that led to the terming of the name still happen in different parts of the world.

Talk:Therian

2009-03-13T04:08:56Z

Trpdwarf: /* Time for a few actual rennovations */

Talk:Therian

2009-03-13T04:05:54Z

Trpdwarf: /* Time for a few actual rennovations */

The following paragraph was removed from the main article, under the reason of being "very bias[sic]":
:In many ways, therians could be called [[were]]-lifestylers, except most therians are aggressivly against the idea of conciously assuming animal traits, a trait they feel is a hallmark of wannabes and [[lifestylers]]. Instead, they prefer to believe that the therian state is something people cannot assume.
Instead of keeping the entire pragraph out, could someone rewrite it, if possible, to just be a lot less biased and then reinsert it? Thanks, --[[User:Dmuth|Dmuth]] 19:21, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)

:That's not, in any way, an accurate representation of therians. It -should- be removed outright. {{unsigned|24.162.235.5}} 00:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

== TherianTemple.com ==

Therian Temple lewks like a dead obvious CULT to me. Cults are a SERIOUS problem in the Were-World, ESPECIALLY to young, developing therians. This one, just from the front page is DEFINATELY a Cult, notice: I do not say "coven", I say CULT. Please DO NOT replace this link. thank you to the anon who was removing it and EarthFurst who brought it to my attention. Also: for Future reference: CAREFULL WHAT YOU LINK AS A THERIAN RESOURCE!!! If it dosn't look like Werelist or something, ask some therian knowledgable people to check for you. I can't stress enough how important this is, ESPECIALLY since WikiFur was what showed mee Therian in the first place.

regards: '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]''' 03:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

-----------------
The Therian Temple is not a cult. Cults recruit, Cults force members to do things, cults have an idolized Leader...they dont do any of that.
Its very close minded to try and write off something new right away just because its not just like what you believe in.
The T.T. has members in 4 countries including members of the US Armed Forces.
None of them have ever done anythign illegal-you would have seen it on the news: "Werewolf cult kills babies" or something-but you didnt-because its justa group of people who study magic and read books-quit being so mean. ~tolerant one {{Unsigned|67.149.55.134}}

:oh really? and you are?
:Pah! whatever. We can't put it up there anyway, it's considered a scam by every therian I know (I doubt you are one, but I won't go there). Even still, I KNOW what cults do to us, so I want to keep this stuff off of wikifur, especially for what I said before. if you REALLY want to try for this, wait a week or two, the Therian Wiki is currently waiting for Wikia staff to make it, we can discuss this there. '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]'''

::I actually agree with tolerant one on this one...it is not a cult. But it is a scam, and something to be avoided.-{{Unsigned|Xainy}}

:I will state here what I said in another talk page:
Due to possible conflict of interest, I will not personally edit this article, however:
If there is reliable information needed about the Therian Temple, please go straight to the source and email me: ordovirbestia@theriantemple.com

For the record:
One thing can be certain: no TT member has ever committed a crime.
If any member was ever to do so, they would have their membership immediately revoked (we don't even allow illegal drug use).
Stating in an online resource that we are involved in ANY criminal activity is in fact a legal issue of libel / slander (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel) and legal action WILL be taken against any people making such false claims.

Peace to you all.
Magus Fenrir Therion,
Therian Temple
[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

:Regardless of how the KoolAid actually tastes, I'm going to leave links to the Temple off this article, as well as [[Therianthropy]]. The links that continue to stay are both informative resources that tell me more about therians and therianthropy. I would also advise that [[Therian Temple]] gets a heavy overhaul so you're not selling the site or shilling your product on the wiki. Also, please do not come in here touting the law stick. All of you behave, please. You too, cchristian. --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 17:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:Perhaps you can overhaul that article. As I stated, I will not be editing Therian related articles due to POV / Conflict of interest issues.
The "Law stick", as you call it, was necessary at the time, due to someone writing in that "cults like Therian Temple kill people", which is an obviously libelous claim, which can easily be proven false by simply doing even minor research.

We do not recruit new members or "sell" anything. Obviously, as a new group, we are not as big and rich as the Christian church that we can give out printed Bibles for free like the Gideons, and the only cost in the TT is the price of the hardcover book, which cost money to print and ship.There is no advertising anywhere for the TT, in print OR online, due to the fact that we wish for only genuinely interested people who have come across it on their own to get involved.

We keep to ourselves generally. Frankly, I think other TT members would agree that we would have preferred to keep somewhat private, but with all these cruel lies being put on highly trafficked sites, I'm sure you can see why some amount of self-defense was needed.

I am a very friendly and reasonable person, and I can't see why people don't just contact the TT when they have these types of serious questions / accusations about us and our activities. Our email is right on the site, and anyone is welcome to ask questions. I mean, seriously, if you actually thought a group was participating in killing or anything close to that, wouldn't you investigate it, or at least contact the authorities to see if any "werewolf murders" had ever occurred? To just say it in a wiki page is clearly just an attempt to make a minority group of adherents look bad publicly for whatever reasons / agendas.

I do respect and Thank you, Kendricks, for keeping an objective "wiki" type of perspective on this issue, when so many others have been editing in their own personal views into related articles.
[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
:Although you can threaten with legal threats, we would ask that you [[Legal threats|do not for these reasons]]. As for your print issues, if this is a religious group, you can ask for tithing or simply ask for donations. Forcing someone to buy their way into your religion sits wrong on MANY people, including me. Thank you for understanding the need for an NPOV, however the same standards are expected of you and your roommate as well. Making thinly veiled jabs and attacks on other sites do not lend well to your claims of good faith. Quite simply to quote religiously, "[[Wikipedia:Golden Rule|do unto others as you would have them do unto you]]" and "turn the other cheek."--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 02:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

:Dear Sir,(Madame?) I believe you are very confused, or being fed misinformation somehow.
No one is "forced" to buy or do anything.
Also, we are not a Christian group, and do not and will never ask for tithing (10% of people's yearly income, as asked by "tithing" churches is a LOT more than the cost of one copy of a hardcover book). No one can "buy their way into" any religion, either they believe in it and follow it or the don't.
Obviously, though, you would want people to know what you are talking about when referring to the book.
Christian churches don't require new member to buy their book because ther bible is Readily available anywhere, due to hundreds of YEARS of mass distribution
What "jabs" are you talking about?
Defending the group of which I am a member by saying that we do not allow illegal activity is an attack on someone? Who? How?
Also, we are not a Christian group, and thus, are not bound by the Christian "golden rule", and personally, I see it more fit to "do unto others as THEY HAVE DONE TO YOU". If someone insults me with false accusations, and is somehow insulted by the fact that their accusations have been publicly proven false, this is only fair game.
I don't see it as an attack to protect myself and my group from slanderous lies being spread about us.
This is beginning to seem like a gang-up tactic on here, with a bunch people forcing me having to explain things that are already clearly stated on the TT site.
I hope you do plan to make this site and its information remain objective and not let people's personal views blur the line between some people's fantasy and reality.[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

:I'm not ganging up on anyone or anything. I'm staying neutral. That should have been honest when I suspended Christian for attacking you. When I said "buying" one's way into a religion, I was referring to the fact that to join your religion, you have to give someone $30 bucks. Otherwise you can't get in. It's like any other one of those television evangelists who will share the secrets of God with you for 5 easy payments. The jabs I referred to is your edits to Werelist. The edits have been cleaned up there. As for the Golden Rule, it doesn't necessarily have to be Christian. It's just morally good sense. Retaliation like you seem to support is the reason that this conflict will likely continue on. Break the cycle, dude. Otherwise, it will be assumed that any edits you make on this wiki will be in bad faith and will be automatically reverted.--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 01:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:Maybe you overlooked a main point:
"Obviously, you would want people to know what you are talking about when referring to the book." --Meaning-it would be unfair & deceitful to allow people to participate in a "religion" if some of them did not have the book and some did. Requiring that people read the book first helps make sure that everyone involved knows what they are getting into / supporting. That should be easy to understand.
Again: Christian churches don't require new members to buy their book because their bible is Readily available anywhere, due to hundreds of YEARS of mass distribution, and MOST people have already read or at least have a copy of the Holy Bible.
Also, most christian groups pursue a tax-exempt status, and therefore many materials are subsidized. We, however, do not pursue a tax-exempt status, thus we pay full cost for our materials, and pay taxes on them. I don't see how anyone could consider that to be anything like television evangelists who are using a widely available text (the Holy Bible) and who do not pay taxes. [[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
:You know it's not just Christianity that does this, you know. :-) Most religions fall under that tax-exemption. You should investigate it yourself. And I don't think you pay attention to TV evangelists who hawk wares like their own personal books or my personal favorite was the prayer hankie. The point I was making earlier is that churchs, synagogues and mosques tend to operate due to DONATIONS by the members, not by paying dues or by paying an entrance fee. You claim to have this mass flock in 4 countries. It should be no trouble at all ask for donations because really what are your expenses? You can get your book tossed off a vanity press or if you really want to be new age, have it available on the good ol Internet. Beyond, there's website upkeep and...? Anything beyond that and you MIGHT be setting your sights too high too soon. :) My other point is your line about the people reading the book first before they know what they're getting into. However they've already paid their $30 and a little voice tells me that you probably don't offer refunds. Just like the TV evangelists. Stupid prayer hankie. --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 18:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:Why do people keep acting like $30 is a lot of money? What are you people homeless or something? I spend $30 on lunch. Analogy: If I wanted to check out a musician's latest CD, I would only be given minor samples of what it contained (radio songs,myspace page, music video etc.) , and would have to buy the CD to hear the rest of it. Should I get a refund if I end up only liking one song on the CD? NO, because it cost money to make the CD, and I agreed to take the risk that I may or may not like the whole CD. You are being ridiculous, and you sound like a communist...-[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
::Actually $30 may be a bit overspending on your lunch. I think I pay 5 bucks at my local hot dog stand. :-) And for many furries, otherkin and therian, $30 bucks can be a frivolous expenditure. And, btw, noting your analogy, you don't offer clips and snippets. Maybe that'd be an idea?--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 22:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

:If one views "Temple Mission" on our site there are very basic excerpts from the Therian Bible there, for which we have chosen the more "stern" elements to filter out anyone potentially not prepared to deal with our form of Practices, thus those who buy the book already expect order and rules, and no one has ever asked for a "refund".
And, personally, I do not eat "hot dogs", or any other animals, and would never risk my own health on a meal costing merely $5. Nor would I waste my time on a book that needs to be given out for free, as if the group is desperate for members. Books also can constitute mind food... If You are what you eat, and you eat cheap garbage...well, then....

-[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

::Sorry to inturrupt, but don't you ''claim'' to be a were-WOLF??? How could you stand to "not eat any animals"? I mean, some of us even drool over ROAD KILL sometimes. I've broken the rule somewhere in the Torah saying "though shalt not drink blood" a few times, simply because I can't resist the urges. You come along and say that you are a Wolf therian, yet you insult the consumption of meat as if it disgusts you in some way. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you are being entirely truthful here... '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]'''

Indeed one could consider it suspicious, but I do know many predatory therians that do not consume meat. One can contol one's instincts in an effort to control the animal within. As a wolf therian, I refuse to eat most meat, as most meat around here is factory farmed and disgusting. I eat only meat that I myself kill, and so I recieve it roughly once a week. I'm simply saying, even a carnivorous therianthrope can refrain from eating meat if they so wish it.

== Therians don't bring their animal into their daily lives? Dowhaa? ==

''"Therians differ from the Furry lifestyle in that they do not try to mimic or bring their animal into their daily lives. Therians understand their nature as being -human- and -animal- and as thus feel no need to pretend or 'play the role' of the animal, save in some circumstances."''

While this is certainly typical of a fair number of therians, I personally know several that do not fall into this generalization. While they do indeed understand their nature of being both human and animal, by no means does this mean that their phenotype does not make itself apparent in everyday life. Now, I don't mean to say they howl at the moon or things like that, but their animal does tend to make itself visible in their mannerisms and habits. This should be reworded to reflect this diversity or removed entirely. [[User:Baral'heia|Baral'heia Stormdancer]] 07:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I do agree with this. Stating that all therians behave in such a manner simply is not true. I in no way hide the wolf within me, and as such it tends to show, especially in my personality and the habits I form.

== Two things I feel necessary to bring up. ==

--[[User:Trpdwarf|Trpdwarf]] 18:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that it is a bit strange to try to put a Physical shift into this. The Physical shift that is spoken of more tied to Lycanthropy which is the past has been tied to Ergot(a fungus), Rabies in humans, and or a fear of people who appeared overly hairy, or seemed overtly bestial. It is stated in the article the aggressive stance towards so called P shifting therefore it makes better sense to not have the entire thing there at all.

Also this article needs to not have otherkin inflections in it. This article is about Therians therefore things related to Otherkin need to not be here. Now maybe some people who identify as Therian think that being Therian is about having a soul other than human, but I know more than a few long standing Therians who feel quite the opposite. They do not make the claim to having souls other than human. Perhaps it is better that the idea of "Animal soul other than human" is kept out of the article altogether.
EDIT: Also this

"A distinction between mythical therians and otherkin can be found however, as many otherkin seem to believe they have a 'past life' or an 'alternate existence/persona' which makes up their otherkin nature. Therians do not see their animalistic nature as being separate from themselves and as thus many of these types of mythicals have joined therian community."

I want to know where this is coming from? I have removed it and put it here. Who ever put it there, I'd like an explainion of it. A distinction between "Mythical Therians?". That means what? Therians usually associate with animals that are real. AkA, they have the totem of the crow, the wolf, the coyote, ect. Also a thorough explanation of the rest is wanted as well. Again, the article is about Therians, and Therian does not equal Otherkin.

== Time for a few actual rennovations ==

I added a few things, changed a few things, and removed a few things. Therianthropy does not (for example), have anything at all to do with animal totems, or invoking animal spirits--and it never has. As otherkin are people who feel they are other than human, therians most certainly are a type of otherkin. A lot of the best were sites on the web have fallen into disrepair, been lost, or come under new management in recent years. We've come a long way since the days of AHWW, but we're at a bit of a low point right now, community wise. I see a lot of misconceptions and misinformation floating around.

I'm not sure where the idea came from that otherkin are some sort of completely seperate phenomenon, but apart from therians having known animals as their other side, and otherkin having mythical/fantastical creatures as their other side, there is little difference. The two communities did 'evolve' seperately, but there has been a lot of overlap over the years, and I challenge anyone to come up with a point of significant difference between the two. Some otherkin 'shift' just as therians do, and some therians do not shift (contherianthropy). There is no clearcut line.

The entire lot of descriptions of shifting were wrong, so I have corrected them. Therians do not need to use drugs or meditation to shift. I'm sure there are a few out there who do, but they do not need to, and I see no point in mentioning what is not a common practice. Shifting is generally easy for therians, if we are in the right setting. A person who has to take drugs to do it is either not therian, or has serious psychological problems.

--the surly old greymuzzle,

{{WingedWolfPsion}} 19:51, 12 March 2009 (CST)

This thread is about Therians. This thread is not about Otherkin. Therefore Otherkin beliefs should not show up here but rather in the Otherkin wiki.

As for the person going on about "Therians are not about animal totems" blah-blah-blah...as long as I have known about Therians, it has been nothing but about, totem animals, or animal spirit guides. W

There is a huge difference between Otherkin and therians. Therianthropy has a history that goes all the way back to the Greeks, and further. The Greeks only coined the term.It would make sense the only reason they came up with the term is due to being exposed to perhaps African culture, and Pagan cultures during trade relations. What they came across were people who has shamanistic, or druidistic in form, hence the translation "Beast human" or "Beast people". That's the history of the word, but good luck finding a source that was not edited by Otherkin.

The basic generalization we can make is that it was to describe people who thought they can either turn into an animal, or people who believed that other people could, or people who believed they descended from animals turned human. If you are going to turn around and say "You are a therian" today you cannot exactly say you transform into something physically. That's crazy. Agree or disagree? If you want to claim Therian by soul, it would make sense you would also have to claim that you are an animal that physically turned into an human and thus have a animal soul. There is nothing in the associated history from what I can see that leads to "You are born with different soul". That's really an otherkin thing.

If you throw out physical transformation, you end up with just associated beliefs, such as totem animals, and animal guides. No offense to the Otherkin but while you all have been around at least 20 years, Therianthropy has been around longer. That it's origins are Greek, the name, proves that much. Therefore if there is going to be a Wiki on therians it should reflect the old side that some people still follow, and the neo side that Otherkin started. Blending it together or ommitting one or the other does not do people good justice.

Talk:Therian

2009-03-13T04:01:55Z

Trpdwarf: /* Time for a few actual rennovations */

The following paragraph was removed from the main article, under the reason of being "very bias[sic]":
:In many ways, therians could be called [[were]]-lifestylers, except most therians are aggressivly against the idea of conciously assuming animal traits, a trait they feel is a hallmark of wannabes and [[lifestylers]]. Instead, they prefer to believe that the therian state is something people cannot assume.
Instead of keeping the entire pragraph out, could someone rewrite it, if possible, to just be a lot less biased and then reinsert it? Thanks, --[[User:Dmuth|Dmuth]] 19:21, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)

:That's not, in any way, an accurate representation of therians. It -should- be removed outright. {{unsigned|24.162.235.5}} 00:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

== TherianTemple.com ==

Therian Temple lewks like a dead obvious CULT to me. Cults are a SERIOUS problem in the Were-World, ESPECIALLY to young, developing therians. This one, just from the front page is DEFINATELY a Cult, notice: I do not say "coven", I say CULT. Please DO NOT replace this link. thank you to the anon who was removing it and EarthFurst who brought it to my attention. Also: for Future reference: CAREFULL WHAT YOU LINK AS A THERIAN RESOURCE!!! If it dosn't look like Werelist or something, ask some therian knowledgable people to check for you. I can't stress enough how important this is, ESPECIALLY since WikiFur was what showed mee Therian in the first place.

regards: '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]''' 03:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

-----------------
The Therian Temple is not a cult. Cults recruit, Cults force members to do things, cults have an idolized Leader...they dont do any of that.
Its very close minded to try and write off something new right away just because its not just like what you believe in.
The T.T. has members in 4 countries including members of the US Armed Forces.
None of them have ever done anythign illegal-you would have seen it on the news: "Werewolf cult kills babies" or something-but you didnt-because its justa group of people who study magic and read books-quit being so mean. ~tolerant one {{Unsigned|67.149.55.134}}

:oh really? and you are?
:Pah! whatever. We can't put it up there anyway, it's considered a scam by every therian I know (I doubt you are one, but I won't go there). Even still, I KNOW what cults do to us, so I want to keep this stuff off of wikifur, especially for what I said before. if you REALLY want to try for this, wait a week or two, the Therian Wiki is currently waiting for Wikia staff to make it, we can discuss this there. '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]'''

::I actually agree with tolerant one on this one...it is not a cult. But it is a scam, and something to be avoided.-{{Unsigned|Xainy}}

:I will state here what I said in another talk page:
Due to possible conflict of interest, I will not personally edit this article, however:
If there is reliable information needed about the Therian Temple, please go straight to the source and email me: ordovirbestia@theriantemple.com

For the record:
One thing can be certain: no TT member has ever committed a crime.
If any member was ever to do so, they would have their membership immediately revoked (we don't even allow illegal drug use).
Stating in an online resource that we are involved in ANY criminal activity is in fact a legal issue of libel / slander (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel) and legal action WILL be taken against any people making such false claims.

Peace to you all.
Magus Fenrir Therion,
Therian Temple
[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

:Regardless of how the KoolAid actually tastes, I'm going to leave links to the Temple off this article, as well as [[Therianthropy]]. The links that continue to stay are both informative resources that tell me more about therians and therianthropy. I would also advise that [[Therian Temple]] gets a heavy overhaul so you're not selling the site or shilling your product on the wiki. Also, please do not come in here touting the law stick. All of you behave, please. You too, cchristian. --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 17:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:Perhaps you can overhaul that article. As I stated, I will not be editing Therian related articles due to POV / Conflict of interest issues.
The "Law stick", as you call it, was necessary at the time, due to someone writing in that "cults like Therian Temple kill people", which is an obviously libelous claim, which can easily be proven false by simply doing even minor research.

We do not recruit new members or "sell" anything. Obviously, as a new group, we are not as big and rich as the Christian church that we can give out printed Bibles for free like the Gideons, and the only cost in the TT is the price of the hardcover book, which cost money to print and ship.There is no advertising anywhere for the TT, in print OR online, due to the fact that we wish for only genuinely interested people who have come across it on their own to get involved.

We keep to ourselves generally. Frankly, I think other TT members would agree that we would have preferred to keep somewhat private, but with all these cruel lies being put on highly trafficked sites, I'm sure you can see why some amount of self-defense was needed.

I am a very friendly and reasonable person, and I can't see why people don't just contact the TT when they have these types of serious questions / accusations about us and our activities. Our email is right on the site, and anyone is welcome to ask questions. I mean, seriously, if you actually thought a group was participating in killing or anything close to that, wouldn't you investigate it, or at least contact the authorities to see if any "werewolf murders" had ever occurred? To just say it in a wiki page is clearly just an attempt to make a minority group of adherents look bad publicly for whatever reasons / agendas.

I do respect and Thank you, Kendricks, for keeping an objective "wiki" type of perspective on this issue, when so many others have been editing in their own personal views into related articles.
[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
:Although you can threaten with legal threats, we would ask that you [[Legal threats|do not for these reasons]]. As for your print issues, if this is a religious group, you can ask for tithing or simply ask for donations. Forcing someone to buy their way into your religion sits wrong on MANY people, including me. Thank you for understanding the need for an NPOV, however the same standards are expected of you and your roommate as well. Making thinly veiled jabs and attacks on other sites do not lend well to your claims of good faith. Quite simply to quote religiously, "[[Wikipedia:Golden Rule|do unto others as you would have them do unto you]]" and "turn the other cheek."--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 02:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

:Dear Sir,(Madame?) I believe you are very confused, or being fed misinformation somehow.
No one is "forced" to buy or do anything.
Also, we are not a Christian group, and do not and will never ask for tithing (10% of people's yearly income, as asked by "tithing" churches is a LOT more than the cost of one copy of a hardcover book). No one can "buy their way into" any religion, either they believe in it and follow it or the don't.
Obviously, though, you would want people to know what you are talking about when referring to the book.
Christian churches don't require new member to buy their book because ther bible is Readily available anywhere, due to hundreds of YEARS of mass distribution
What "jabs" are you talking about?
Defending the group of which I am a member by saying that we do not allow illegal activity is an attack on someone? Who? How?
Also, we are not a Christian group, and thus, are not bound by the Christian "golden rule", and personally, I see it more fit to "do unto others as THEY HAVE DONE TO YOU". If someone insults me with false accusations, and is somehow insulted by the fact that their accusations have been publicly proven false, this is only fair game.
I don't see it as an attack to protect myself and my group from slanderous lies being spread about us.
This is beginning to seem like a gang-up tactic on here, with a bunch people forcing me having to explain things that are already clearly stated on the TT site.
I hope you do plan to make this site and its information remain objective and not let people's personal views blur the line between some people's fantasy and reality.[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

:I'm not ganging up on anyone or anything. I'm staying neutral. That should have been honest when I suspended Christian for attacking you. When I said "buying" one's way into a religion, I was referring to the fact that to join your religion, you have to give someone $30 bucks. Otherwise you can't get in. It's like any other one of those television evangelists who will share the secrets of God with you for 5 easy payments. The jabs I referred to is your edits to Werelist. The edits have been cleaned up there. As for the Golden Rule, it doesn't necessarily have to be Christian. It's just morally good sense. Retaliation like you seem to support is the reason that this conflict will likely continue on. Break the cycle, dude. Otherwise, it will be assumed that any edits you make on this wiki will be in bad faith and will be automatically reverted.--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 01:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:Maybe you overlooked a main point:
"Obviously, you would want people to know what you are talking about when referring to the book." --Meaning-it would be unfair & deceitful to allow people to participate in a "religion" if some of them did not have the book and some did. Requiring that people read the book first helps make sure that everyone involved knows what they are getting into / supporting. That should be easy to understand.
Again: Christian churches don't require new members to buy their book because their bible is Readily available anywhere, due to hundreds of YEARS of mass distribution, and MOST people have already read or at least have a copy of the Holy Bible.
Also, most christian groups pursue a tax-exempt status, and therefore many materials are subsidized. We, however, do not pursue a tax-exempt status, thus we pay full cost for our materials, and pay taxes on them. I don't see how anyone could consider that to be anything like television evangelists who are using a widely available text (the Holy Bible) and who do not pay taxes. [[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
:You know it's not just Christianity that does this, you know. :-) Most religions fall under that tax-exemption. You should investigate it yourself. And I don't think you pay attention to TV evangelists who hawk wares like their own personal books or my personal favorite was the prayer hankie. The point I was making earlier is that churchs, synagogues and mosques tend to operate due to DONATIONS by the members, not by paying dues or by paying an entrance fee. You claim to have this mass flock in 4 countries. It should be no trouble at all ask for donations because really what are your expenses? You can get your book tossed off a vanity press or if you really want to be new age, have it available on the good ol Internet. Beyond, there's website upkeep and...? Anything beyond that and you MIGHT be setting your sights too high too soon. :) My other point is your line about the people reading the book first before they know what they're getting into. However they've already paid their $30 and a little voice tells me that you probably don't offer refunds. Just like the TV evangelists. Stupid prayer hankie. --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 18:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

:Why do people keep acting like $30 is a lot of money? What are you people homeless or something? I spend $30 on lunch. Analogy: If I wanted to check out a musician's latest CD, I would only be given minor samples of what it contained (radio songs,myspace page, music video etc.) , and would have to buy the CD to hear the rest of it. Should I get a refund if I end up only liking one song on the CD? NO, because it cost money to make the CD, and I agreed to take the risk that I may or may not like the whole CD. You are being ridiculous, and you sound like a communist...-[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])
::Actually $30 may be a bit overspending on your lunch. I think I pay 5 bucks at my local hot dog stand. :-) And for many furries, otherkin and therian, $30 bucks can be a frivolous expenditure. And, btw, noting your analogy, you don't offer clips and snippets. Maybe that'd be an idea?--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 22:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

:If one views "Temple Mission" on our site there are very basic excerpts from the Therian Bible there, for which we have chosen the more "stern" elements to filter out anyone potentially not prepared to deal with our form of Practices, thus those who buy the book already expect order and rules, and no one has ever asked for a "refund".
And, personally, I do not eat "hot dogs", or any other animals, and would never risk my own health on a meal costing merely $5. Nor would I waste my time on a book that needs to be given out for free, as if the group is desperate for members. Books also can constitute mind food... If You are what you eat, and you eat cheap garbage...well, then....

-[[User:MagusFenrir|MagusFenrir]]([[User talk:MagusFenrir|talk]])

::Sorry to inturrupt, but don't you ''claim'' to be a were-WOLF??? How could you stand to "not eat any animals"? I mean, some of us even drool over ROAD KILL sometimes. I've broken the rule somewhere in the Torah saying "though shalt not drink blood" a few times, simply because I can't resist the urges. You come along and say that you are a Wolf therian, yet you insult the consumption of meat as if it disgusts you in some way. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you are being entirely truthful here... '''- ''[[user:cchristianTehWazzit|cchristian]]'' [[user talk:cchristianTehWazzit|talk]]'''

Indeed one could consider it suspicious, but I do know many predatory therians that do not consume meat. One can contol one's instincts in an effort to control the animal within. As a wolf therian, I refuse to eat most meat, as most meat around here is factory farmed and disgusting. I eat only meat that I myself kill, and so I recieve it roughly once a week. I'm simply saying, even a carnivorous therianthrope can refrain from eating meat if they so wish it.

== Therians don't bring their animal into their daily lives? Dowhaa? ==

''"Therians differ from the Furry lifestyle in that they do not try to mimic or bring their animal into their daily lives. Therians understand their nature as being -human- and -animal- and as thus feel no need to pretend or 'play the role' of the animal, save in some circumstances."''

While this is certainly typical of a fair number of therians, I personally know several that do not fall into this generalization. While they do indeed understand their nature of being both human and animal, by no means does this mean that their phenotype does not make itself apparent in everyday life. Now, I don't mean to say they howl at the moon or things like that, but their animal does tend to make itself visible in their mannerisms and habits. This should be reworded to reflect this diversity or removed entirely. [[User:Baral'heia|Baral'heia Stormdancer]] 07:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I do agree with this. Stating that all therians behave in such a manner simply is not true. I in no way hide the wolf within me, and as such it tends to show, especially in my personality and the habits I form.

== Two things I feel necessary to bring up. ==

--[[User:Trpdwarf|Trpdwarf]] 18:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that it is a bit strange to try to put a Physical shift into this. The Physical shift that is spoken of more tied to Lycanthropy which is the past has been tied to Ergot(a fungus), Rabies in humans, and or a fear of people who appeared overly hairy, or seemed overtly bestial. It is stated in the article the aggressive stance towards so called P shifting therefore it makes better sense to not have the entire thing there at all.

Also this article needs to not have otherkin inflections in it. This article is about Therians therefore things related to Otherkin need to not be here. Now maybe some people who identify as Therian think that being Therian is about having a soul other than human, but I know more than a few long standing Therians who feel quite the opposite. They do not make the claim to having souls other than human. Perhaps it is better that the idea of "Animal soul other than human" is kept out of the article altogether.
EDIT: Also this

"A distinction between mythical therians and otherkin can be found however, as many otherkin seem to believe they have a 'past life' or an 'alternate existence/persona' which makes up their otherkin nature. Therians do not see their animalistic nature as being separate from themselves and as thus many of these types of mythicals have joined therian community."

I want to know where this is coming from? I have removed it and put it here. Who ever put it there, I'd like an explainion of it. A distinction between "Mythical Therians?". That means what? Therians usually associate with animals that are real. AkA, they have the totem of the crow, the wolf, the coyote, ect. Also a thorough explanation of the rest is wanted as well. Again, the article is about Therians, and Therian does not equal Otherkin.

== Time for a few actual rennovations ==

I added a few things, changed a few things, and removed a few things. Therianthropy does not (for example), have anything at all to do with animal totems, or invoking animal spirits--and it never has. As otherkin are people who feel they are other than human, therians most certainly are a type of otherkin. A lot of the best were sites on the web have fallen into disrepair, been lost, or come under new management in recent years. We've come a long way since the days of AHWW, but we're at a bit of a low point right now, community wise. I see a lot of misconceptions and misinformation floating around.

I'm not sure where the idea came from that otherkin are some sort of completely seperate phenomenon, but apart from therians having known animals as their other side, and otherkin having mythical/fantastical creatures as their other side, there is little difference. The two communities did 'evolve' seperately, but there has been a lot of overlap over the years, and I challenge anyone to come up with a point of significant difference between the two. Some otherkin 'shift' just as therians do, and some therians do not shift (contherianthropy). There is no clearcut line.

The entire lot of descriptions of shifting were wrong, so I have corrected them. Therians do not need to use drugs or meditation to shift. I'm sure there are a few out there who do, but they do not need to, and I see no point in mentioning what is not a common practice. Shifting is generally easy for therians, if we are in the right setting. A person who has to take drugs to do it is either not therian, or has serious psychological problems.

--the surly old greymuzzle,

{{WingedWolfPsion}} 19:51, 12 March 2009 (CST)

This thread is about Therians. This thread is not about Otherkin. Therefore Otherkin beliefs should not show up here but rather in the Otherkin wiki.

As for the person going on about "Therians are not about animal totems" blah-blah-blah...as long as I have known about Therians, it has been nothing but about, totem animals, or animal spirit guides. What else could it have been when the modern sect showed up...before Otherkin even existed? Otherkin is secondary, Therians came first. Don't try to show up and change what already is set, okay?

There is a huge difference between Otherkin and therians. Therianthropy has a history that goes all the way back to the Greeks, and further. The Greeks only coined the term to describe what they came across as per trade relations. What they came across were people who has shamanistic, or druidistic in form, hence the translation "Beast human" or "Beast people".

The basic generalization we can make is that it was to describe people who thought they can either turn into an animal, or people who believed that other people could, or people who believed they desceneded from animals turned human. If you are going to turn around and say "You are a therian" today you cannot exactly say you transform into something. It does not work that way physically. The only way you can logically claim Therian by a different soul is to say your are, a animal that transformed physically into a human.

What is really left? If you throw out physical transformation, you end up with just associated beliefs, such as totem animals, and animal guides. No offense to the Otherkin but while you all have been around at least 20 years, Therianthropy has been around longer. That it's origins are greek, the name, proves that much. Therefore if there is going to be a Wiki on therians it should reflect the old side that some people still follow, and the neo side that Otherkin started.

Talk:Therian

2009-03-13T03:56:39Z

Trpdwarf:

Therian

2008-12-25T19:11:49Z

Trpdwarf:

:Main article at [[Therianthropy]].

'''Therians''' are people who believe that they have an intrinsic, personal, and integral connection to (an) animal(s). That is to say that part of their core being is animal, be it spiritually, mentally, et cetera. Unlike [[furry lifestyle]]rs, therians do not try to outwardly project their animalistic nature, nor do they choose the animal side they are inherently born with. Therians may also be called "shifters", though this can be a contentious term as a growing number feel they do not actually change from one state to another and do not reflect a human-animal state by having an animal soul and a human body.

There are three categorized types of ''shifts'' acknowledged by the therian community:
* '''Mental (M-Shift)''' - A case where, for psychological reasons, a person has an animal-human mental state.
* '''Spiritual (S-Shift)''' - A case where, for spiritual reasons, a person has an animal-human mental state.
* '''Physical (P-Shift)''' - People who can magically or scientifically change forms.

Other types of shifts have been categorized from these terms and can be found in the links as listed below.

In spite of these formal definitions M-shift has become the dominant term to refer to any non-physical shift, whether for psychological reasons or spiritual reasons.

Shifting, in general, means times when animalistic aspects become, either through voluntary methods like meditation or drugs, or involuntarily, dominant over human aspects of the person's personality. This may include, but not be limited to, feelings of "phantom limbs" or fur, keener senses, desires to bite or hunt, feelings of instincts not usual to humans, etc. This shifting, however, is not limited to therians alone, as anyone is capable of bringing on an animalistic shift. Shifting is not an inherent, or required part of therianthropy.

P-shifting is the most controversial. As a general rule, it's more used as a term to discuss fictional [[transformation]]s rather than literal ones; people claiming to p-shift in any way are usually met with aggressive skepticism and are often accused of being [[roleplay]]ers. Any respectable therian community will require proof before they would allow anyone to discuss this ability. As such, no self-proclaimed Pshifter has ever offered up proof of their shifting ability.

Some Therian groups view the "physical shift" as NOT being an actual change into an animal, but an intense physiological change, which may include heightened senses, increased strength, etc.

Therians differ from the [[Furry lifestyle]] in that they do not try to mimic or bring their animal into their daily lives. Therians understand their nature as being -human- and -animal- and as thus feel no need to pretend or 'play the role' of the animal, save in some circumstances. Therians also do not, in any way, choose their animal side, they are born into it. It takes a great deal of introspection and understanding for a therian to come to terms with their inner animal nature. The therian nature is not based on stereotypes (such as a wolf howling at the moon, or a lion's courage). Therian nature can however be based on old world ideas of druidism, shamanism, totemism, and spiritual guides. It can deal with lessons learned from animal guides, during times of trouble, stress, sleep, and or meditation, in which the spirit may shift into the person's soul to teach them a lesson, or guide them.

Usually, therians have one animal aspect, or [[phenotype]], but some have two or more. Generally, these people are referred to as ''Polyweres'' [alternate term: Pan-Therian], and can be a source of controversy, as single-aspect therians often cannot relate to how a multiple-animal therian could exist, especially in the context of having an animal soul. Many are therian-[[otherkin]] mixes, such as wolf-dragons or cat-vampires.

==See also==
*[[Otherkin]]
*[[Therianthropy]]
*[[Furry lifestyle]]

==External links==
* [http://www.werelist.com/ the Werelist]
* [http://therian.wikia.com/ Therian.Wikia]

[[Category:culture]]
[[Category:terms]]
[[Category:spirituality]]

Talk:Otherkin

2008-12-25T19:07:45Z

Trpdwarf: /* Something important */ new section

{{Featured}}

== Wikipedia discussing merging Otherkin and Therianthropy ==

FYI, some wikipedian(s) are consider merging [[wikipedia:Otherkin]] with [[wikipedia:Therianthropy]]. Discussion is at [[wikipedia:Talk:Therianthropy#Proposal to merge from Otherkin]] and the "Keep them seperate!" thread on the same Talk page. --[[User:EarthFurst|EarthFurst]] 21:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

== Community history section ==

It was suggested that some otherkin community history I researched for Wikipedia might be more welcome here than it proved to be there. I've added it to the article; hopefully you'll be able to use it. :) [[User:Vashti|Vashti]] 22:08, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

== Description ==

Is it me, or does this article seem a bit overly general in its descriptions? I'll admit I don't have a lot of experience here, but look at the opening line:
"Otherkin are those who believe that their physical forms do not define or fully encompass their mental states, personality, psychology, or spiritual nature."
Whatever Otherkin is, exactly, I don't think you can safely call that a description of it - not so much because it doesn't accurately describe Otherkin, but because it covers too many bases. I certainly wouldn't say my body "fully encompasses" my psychology or personality, but I'm reasonably sure I'm not a subscriber to Otherkin. Much of the article sounds like it's trying to avoid dwelling on the "weirder" aspects of the culture, but I think the results are just plain misleading. [[User:Caswin|Caswin]] 01:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

== Something important ==

I wish to bring up that it is very important for Otherkin to realize that there are people out there who have been Therians longer than the internet has been around. They might not appreciate the idea of having the term originally used to refer to their spirituality turned around to label something completely different.

For example, I know a therian who has been one for 8 years. She only holds to the idea of totemism, and has an animal spirit guide that was given to her by a Native American tribe member. She has nothing to do with Otherkin. She is sometimes misassociated online as being part of the Otherkin Community due to you all forcing an association between Otherkin and Therians. Therefore you all need to be aware of what you are doing and it's impact on other people. Not all therians want to be forced into association with Otherkin and it is not your place to force that association when something has has been around longer than you and your group.

Hence why I edited the Otherkin and therian part because it needs to show the other side. It needs to not be so absolute.

Talk:Otherkin

2008-12-25T19:07:23Z

Trpdwarf: /* Description */

Talk:Otherkin

2008-12-25T19:06:31Z

Trpdwarf:

{{Featured}}

== Wikipedia discussing merging Otherkin and Therianthropy ==

FYI, some wikipedian(s) are consider merging [[wikipedia:Otherkin]] with [[wikipedia:Therianthropy]]. Discussion is at [[wikipedia:Talk:Therianthropy#Proposal to merge from Otherkin]] and the "Keep them seperate!" thread on the same Talk page. --[[User:EarthFurst|EarthFurst]] 21:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

== Community history section ==

It was suggested that some otherkin community history I researched for Wikipedia might be more welcome here than it proved to be there. I've added it to the article; hopefully you'll be able to use it. :) [[User:Vashti|Vashti]] 22:08, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

== Description ==

Is it me, or does this article seem a bit overly general in its descriptions? I'll admit I don't have a lot of experience here, but look at the opening line:
"Otherkin are those who believe that their physical forms do not define or fully encompass their mental states, personality, psychology, or spiritual nature."
Whatever Otherkin is, exactly, I don't think you can safely call that a description of it - not so much because it doesn't accurately describe Otherkin, but because it covers too many bases. I certainly wouldn't say my body "fully encompasses" my psychology or personality, but I'm reasonably sure I'm not a subscriber to Otherkin. Much of the article sounds like it's trying to avoid dwelling on the "weirder" aspects of the culture, but I think the results are just plain misleading. [[User:Caswin|Caswin]] 01:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I wish to bring up that it is very important for Otherkin to realize that there are people out there who have been Therians longer than the internet has been around. They might not appreciate the idea of having the term originally used to refer to their spirituality turned around to label something completely different.

For example, I know a therian who has been one for 8 years. She only holds to the idea of totemism, and has an animal spirit guide that was given to her by a Native American tribe member. She has nothing to do with Otherkin. She is sometimes misassociated online as being part of the Otherkin Community due to you all forcing an association between Otherkin and Therians. Therefore you all need to be aware of what you are doing and it's impact on other people. Not all therians want to be forced into association with Otherkin and it is not your place to force that association when something has has been around longer than you and your group.

Hence why I edited the Otherkin and therian part because it needs to show the other side. It needs to not be so absolute.

Otherkin

2008-12-25T18:58:38Z

Trpdwarf: /* Otherkin and therianthropy */

[[Image:Elven Star Rainbow.jpg|right|thumb|The Elven Star, a symbol of otherkin. [http://www.our-elysium.com/otherkin.htm Source]]]'''Otherkin''' are those who believe that their physical forms do not define or fully encompass their mental states, personality, psychology, or [[spirituality|spiritual]] nature.

The term predates its use on the Internet, and is believed to have been coined in the late 1980's by those who felt an affinity or connection to the ''fae folk'' and/or ''[[Wikipedia:elf|elves]]'' of traditional mythological culture and folklore. First appearing in use on the Internet in the mid-1990s, the word was intended to imply some form of kinship with an 'other' element outside of a person's biological nature, physical mind and experiences, and [[human]] life.

==Otherkin beliefs==

Otherkin feel they have a sympathetic connection, affinity, or some other form of relation with another animal or being. Traditionally these have been mythological in nature, beginning with fairy and fey folk, elves, and a few other European mythological archetypes. Later, associations with other creatures became common, including [[unicorn]]s, [[gryphon]]s, [[dragon]]s, angelics, and [[demon]]s; as well as "non-living" types such as golems and other inorganics. In time, some people also began to describe concepts for beings which were derived from mythological archetypes, though having unique qualities; fully undefinable or one-of-a-kind kin types appeared as well.

With the unusual nature of the basic otherkin premises, there has been skepticism directed at it along with the proposal that many people adopt the otherkin identity to justify social difficulties - the outcast syndrome - or because they have a delusion and are in denial about their biological humanity. The idea that otherkin believe they are physically non-human in a spectacular way - such as actually being biological dragons - is seen as a pervasive misunderstanding by otherkin themselves, who point out the spiritual and psychological focus of the concept. Some community members believe this confusion arises from those unfamiliar with the concept or having only a sketchy or distorted awareness; comparing it to psychiatric cases such as [[lycanthropy]] and dissociative identity disorder, and concluding that in order for someone to state that they identify as an elf or gryphon, they must be experiencing a form of hallucination or delusion.

Contrary to [[stereotype]]s which have been perpetuated, most who identify as otherkin are fully aware of their biology and human existence. Many otherkin do have particular spiritual and metaphysical beliefs, and as part of those beliefs have discussed elements of a proposed spiritual reality which is not to be confused with the material world. Even if a given person believes, for instance, that on a spiritual plane they may have wings, it is uncommon that they are making a claim about such things that is scientific in nature, or that they exist in what most people might consider the real world.

Despite these points, some dislike the otherkin concept on the grounds that they feel it is abused by individuals who wish to present themselves as special and unique without merit, and that making unverifiable spiritual claims is one way to achieve this. Over time, otherkin has proven to be appealing to a number of people for this reason, and those within the community can be rigorous about screening out 'me too' and 'fluffbunny' adopters of the otherkin moniker. Some otherkin themselves do not consider the Internet Kin community to have much or any validity, saying that it is easy and tempting for a person to claim almost anything within the realm of online anonymity.

Within the loosely defined otherkin community, online or off, there is no consensus as to just what makes a person otherkin. A variety of phenomena have been observed and theorized about which many feel create some sort of affinity between a person and something else. In this light, some see otherkin as related to concepts such as [[Wikipedia:Totemism|Totemism]], which have appeared in human culture since ancient times. There has also been some debate over how potential factors such as [[Wikipedia:Clinical lycanthropy|clinical lycanthropy]] may account for a percentage of the experiences otherkin believe they have had. While many, and some conjecture most, otherkin follow a paradigm of spiritual reincarnation in some form to help explain their state of being, not all otherkin share this, and may view themselves in other spiritual, philosophical, or psychological frameworks. Even among those who believe in reincarnation, there are a wide variety of interpretations.

Another viewpoint is that the term otherkin largely denotes a social network and should not, or can not, be used as a description for individual spiritual beliefs or to describe an particular theory or explanation for phenomenon. Many people use the otherkin community to find discussion for a variety of subjects and to compare subjective experiences without considering themselves to be otherkin in a descriptive sense.

==History of the community==

Although there are spiritual parallels with shamanism and totemism, the modern otherkin subculture appears to trace its roots back to the counterculture of the 1960s. [[Wikipedia:Hippie|Hippies]] and [[Wikipedia:Flower child|flower children]], in particular, were heavily influenced by the fantasy works of [[Wikipedia:J.R.R. Tolkien|J.R.R. Tolkien]].<ref>[http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/marxism/2004-April/006893.html Tolkien and radical ecology in the sixties] - Mailing list marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu (accessed April 21 2004).</ref>

One example of this influence was the rock band [[Wikipedia:Tyrannosaurus Rex|Tyrannosaurus Rex]], whose drummer took the name [[Wikipedia:Steve Peregrin Took|Steve Peregrin Took]], after a [[Wikipedia:hobbit|hobbit]] character from ''[[Wikipedia:The Lord of the Rings|The Lord of the Rings]]''. The short-lived magazine ''[[Wikipedia:Gandalf's Garden|Gandalf's Garden]]'', named after another Tolkien character, described the group's singer-songwriter [[Wikipedia:Marc Bolan|Marc Bolan]] as "of elfin descent".<ref>[http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/4730/gandalf.htm Tyrannosaurus Rex] - ''Gandalf's Garden'' (July 1968)</ref> Bolan was also frequently referred to as "the Bopping Elf".<ref>[http://www.marc-bolan.com/public/biography2.htm "From Darling Of The Underground To Dandy In The Underworld" - A Brief Bolan Biography], The Official Marc Bolan Fan Club (accessed May 8 2005)</ref>

Another musician of the time who used similar fantasy imagery was Donovan. In the cover notes to his 1966 LP [[Wikipedia:Sunshine Superman|"Sunshine Superman"]], he wrote "starring mr. plod in action with a daughter of the evil land of mordor."<ref>[http://www.sabotage.demon.co.uk/donovan/writings.htm#part_one Sunshine Superman] - Donovan's Non-Poetic Writings (1966)</ref> In the cover notes to his 1967 LP [[Wikipedia:A Gift from a Flower to a Garden|"A Gift from a Flower to a Garden"]], he wrote "We shall fill their days with fairies and elves and pussys and paints, with laughter and song and the gentle influence of Mother Nature."<ref>[http://www.sabotage.demon.co.uk/donovan/writings.htm#Oh,_what_a_Dawn_Youth_is_Rising_to A Gift from a Flower to a Garden] - Donovan's Non-Poetic Writings (1967)</ref>

And in the underground publication ''[[Wikipedia:International Times|International Times]]'', better known as IT, John Peel advised readers to "go to the children's playground in Kensington Gardens and stare at the elves on the trees there".<ref>[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/27/db2701.xml Obituary: John Peel] - Daily Telegraph (27 October 2004)</ref>

The 1970s saw a group calling themselves the Elf Queen's Daughters base themselves in the South Bay area of San Francisco, California.<ref>Silver Elves (2001). The Gainesville Letters. In ''The Magical Elven Love Letters, vol. 1'', pp. 9. Silver Elves Publications; no ISBN.</ref> They were also linked with [[Wikipedia:Seattle, Washington|Seattle, Washington]].<ref>[http://www.student.carleton.edu/orgs/druids/ARDA/ARDA-07.pdf The Druid Miscellany, pp. 2] - A reformed Druid anthology (August 1 1996)</ref> They published a newsletter and focused on "bringing together female elves in celebration of ritual and magic and understanding of Fae", according to the Faeid website.<ref>[http://www.faeid.com/elfqueens.html The Elf Queen's Daughters] - Are you a faeid? (accessed May 4 2005)</ref> In actuality the Elf Queen's Daughters were composed of both male and female elves, although they were Goddess oriented and they referred to all their members as sister.<ref>Comment by the Silver Elves.</ref> One quote from an anonymous founder of the group indicates similar ecologically-based pagan beliefs to those common in the modern otherkin movement — "the image of the Earth being a woman with trees for her hair, rivers for her veins flowing through. That was one of the first to use the image of earth as a physical Goddess."<ref>[http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.religion.all-worlds/msg/89f26a9ce27ab423?dmode=source&hl=en Aeona Silversong Interview] - The Electronic Foghorn (June 15 1993)</ref>

According to the Silver Elves, the Elf Queen's Daughters had ''"given up the path to elfin"'' around 1977. However, in 2004 they wrote that they had recently encountered one of them, Loriel Lyndoreyn.<ref>[http://www.renaissancefestival.com/community/discussion/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=875 magic connects us] - magical elven love letters (accessed May 21 2004).</ref> Another former member, Aeona Silversong, became a priestess in the Church of All Worlds in 1993, while continuing to identify as an elf.<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/20040407120835/http://www.caw.org/clergy/index.html CAW Clergy] - CAWeb (accessed February 23 2004).</ref><ref>[http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.religion.all-worlds/msg/89f26a9ce27ab423?dmode=source&hl=en Aeona Silversong Interview] - The Electronic Foghorn (June 15 1993)</ref> Furthermore, Circle Network News published an article on the seven-pointed elven star citing the group as late as 1986. The Silver Elves suggest that the Elf Queen's Daughters were adept with magic and the use of the Ouija board.<ref>[http://www.sonic.net/~elves/necromancer.html The Way of the Necromancer] - The Elven Tree of Life (May 4 2002).</ref>

The Silver Elves are one of the more prominent groups in the modern subculture, mainly because of the Magical Elven Love Letters which they have regularly published for over twenty years. In their published compilation of these letters, they write that at the time they began to write them in 1979, ''"it had been nearly two years since the Elf Queen's Daughters had forsaken the dharma of the magic letters"''. This would indicate that the letters of the Silver Elves are a direct descendant of the newsletters released by the Elf Queen's Daughters; furthermore, the Silver Elves themselves profess to have been awakened as elves by that group.

Until the Internet became accessible, the letters were sent out by post and further distributed by their recipients, as well as being printed in various newsletters and magazines. Contact details for the Silver Elves were also listed in pagan books, such as [[Wikipedia:Margot Adler|Margot Adler]]'s ''[[Wikipedia:Drawing Down the Moon (book)|"Drawing Down The Moon"]]'' in 1979 and [[Wikipedia:Laurie Cabot|Laurie Cabot]]'s ''"Power of the Witch"'' in 1989.<ref>Adler, Margot, ''Drawing Down The Moon: Druids, Goddess-worshippers and other pagans in America today'', ISBN 0670283428, Viking Press (1979)</ref><ref>Cabot, Laurie, ''Power of the Witch'', ISBN 0385297866, Delacorte Press (1989).</ref>

In 1990, R'ykandar Korra'ti founded the Elfinkind Digest, an e-mail-based mailing list for "elves and interested observers".[http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.frp/msg/834976939ac48fcc?dmode=source&hl=en] At the time, her signature on Usenet was "Elfinkind Unite!" The next year, in 1991, she posted a subdued announcement to several newsgroups publicizing the Digest for the first time.<ref>[http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.frp/msg/834976939ac48fcc?dmode=source&hl=en Small mail-based digest] - Usenet (September 26 1991).</ref> As of 2003, more than 2000 digests had been posted, and this otherkin mailing list is generally acknowledged as the first one.[http://www.murkworks.net/~elflist/]

While Korra'ti had expected to find only other elves through her mailing list, she in fact discovered people with ''"a large number of self-identifications."''<ref>[http://www.rialian.com/elfinkin.htm Elfinkind Digest] - Elven Realities (December 23 1996).</ref> This was one of the first indications that there were other [[species]] identifications out there besides those of elves, and this dichotomy persists to this day in the name of one of the more popular otherkin mailing lists, elven-realities.

On 6 February 1995, the [http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.magick/msg/e5adba21569abd19?dmode=source&hl=en Elven Nation Manifesto] was posted to Usenet.<ref>[http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.magick/msg/e5adba21569abd19?dmode=source&hl=en The Elven Nation Manifesto.....everyone must read this!] - Usenet (February 6 1995).</ref> This document was interesting in several ways: firstly, although it included a real name and a postal address, as well as a partial email address, it was posted through the anonymous remailer at anon.penet.fi. Secondly, several of the common themes in the modern otherkin movement are visible in it, such as the concept that elves have something significant to contribute to the world, and mention of the "Veil to the Otherworld", or the invisible boundary between the real world and the magical world of faerie.

Since it was posted to eleven newsgroups, it also violated Usenet's crossposting etiquette, which was far more strictly observed at the time than it is today. On Usenet itself, the document was universally panned and considered to be either a troll or an attempt to frame an innocent party. However, enough people contacted the original author of the Elven Nation post in good faith for a [http://www.rialian.com/elvsnatn.htm mailing list] to spin off from it.<ref>[http://www.rialian.com/elvsnatn.htm Excerpts from the Elven Nation mailing list] - Elven Realities (accessed May 4 2005).</ref> At least one person considered it to have played a part in their awakening.<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/19991009032307/www.absinthia.com/otherkin/awakening/willow.html Willow] - Awakenings (October 9 1999).</ref>

The community first hit the headlines in 2001 when the Village Voice published an article on it. Entitled "Elven Like Me", it drew gentle comparisons with the antiglobalisation movement, and suggested that otherkin were antimodernist.<ref>[http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0107,mamatas,22273,8.html Elven Like Me] - Village Voice (14 February 2001)</ref>

==Otherkin in the media==

The otherkin phenomenon has experienced less exposure in general media than subculture venues such as furry fandom, although it has been noted with increasing frequency in [[Wikipedia:Neo-Paganism|Neo-Pagan]] culture due to crossover of shamanistic and spiritual elements that has brought otherkin to the attention of contemporary pagans.

To date, there has been little formal study or publication of culture and theory relating to otherkin. One of the first reference volumes to deal with the otherkin culture specifically, ''A Field Guide to Otherkin'', by Lupa, was released in April 2007. The book contains the results of surveys distributed throughout the otherkin and therianthropy communities by the author and volunteers.

==Otherkin and therianthropy==

Otherkin bears (depending upon your point of view) some or no resemblance to [[therianthropy]], and some people consider them the same thing and use them interchangeably. However others don't and consider them unrelated and feel that the attempted correlation between Therians and Otherkin is an invasion into what Therian are supposed to be about. At one point and time Therians ran their own websites at the birth/dawn of the internet. For a long time they were about a set of predetermined ideas based heavily on druidism, shamanism, totemism, and so forth. These days those websites have changed, and are now run by people who make the claim that therian is a subset of Otherkin.

At there present time some Otherkin feel therian is just a another part of Otherkin only dealing with non myth animals. In the meantime in discussion boards across the internet some therians continue to object to seeing their spirituality change to mean something it didn't before and the false associations that come with it,

Rather than tread on someone else's spirituality it might be safer to refer to people who believe they have a soul other than human that is a living or extant animal, animalkin, and those who believe they have a soul other than human that is mythological, mythkin to prevent a misappropriation between otherkin-therian hybrids and non otherkin related therians.

== Otherkin and furry ==

[[Furry fan]]s appear to be generally aware of otherkin and therianthropy. The practices and viewpoints of many [[furry lifestyle]]rs have some similarity to these ideas; because of this, some lifestylers associate with one or both terms. Likewise, while [[furry fandom]] in general might not have been formed to explore spiritual connections with animals and other creatures, many otherkin and therianthropes find the content and subject matter of furry appealing because of their own interests. In the opposite direction, many [[furry fan]]s discover the otherkin community through the fandom and begin to take part in it as well.

A noticeable number of people within the otherkin community are also furry fans in some capacity and frequently attend events such as furry [[convention]]s in addition to otherkin-specific social events. The philosophy and spirituality tracks at some conventions have hosted otherkin and therian speakers. Panels and discussions on mythology have also attracted otherkin to participate. Otherkin who are artists have used furry conventions to display their work, and those with an interest in make-up and costuming have attended for masquerade contests and dances.

Some otherkin feel that the furry fandom is a more relaxed atmosphere in which to explore ideas of animal and human relations and hybrids, seeing the fandom's lack of core spiritual doctrines as neutral ground. Due to this, some people decide to leave the general otherkin and therian communities in favor of furry. Furry events are sometimes popular as a meeting place with otherkin who are geographically isolated from kin-specific events.

===Controversy within furry fandom===

Opinions vary as to whether or not their association with the fandom is positive, negative, or irrelevant. Some people find the association of furry with things beyond its base definition of the appreciation of [[anthropomorphic]] animals in art and fiction to be inappropriate, ridiculous, or uncomfortable. Because of this, otherkin and therian connections or intermingling with the fandom have taken on a pejorative tint for such people. Much as furry lifestylers are sometimes disliked, otherkin might be made to feel unwelcome or derided by some furry fans.

A large degree of fandom awareness has been spread not only by contact with otherkin within the fandom, but by the adoption of otherkin as another topic with which to portray elements of Furry in humorous or negative light by websites such as [[Something Awful]] and [[Crush! Yiff! Destroy!]]. Due to such framing, otherkin has for some people become a generic term to identify furries who feel there is something more to their animal avatar than [[role-playing]]. Some also point out that a good deal of otherkin awareness has been spread by sardonic humor, which often singles out individuals with the most outrageous behavior or controversial opinions. As a result there appear to be inaccuracies in the knowledge of many furry fans and nonfurs relating to more moderate members of the otherkin community.

In response, others have said in spite of this confusion, there are those who identify as otherkin while putting forth dubious claims and questionable behavior. Because of the effect of visibility from the crowd, it is often the most over-the-top examples that are seen by outsiders, and thus tend to be associated with the entire fandom, not unlike many of the other problems with publicity that furry fandom has endured over time.

==Outside otherkin==

Otherkin is a label to describe personal beliefs, experiences, and traits that occur in a variety of combinations depending on the individual. As there is no consensus on what qualifies as otherkin, not everyone who shares similar beliefs feels the term is appropriate or useful for themselves.

Some who might otherwise describe themselves as otherkin downplay or conceal the affiliation. Citing outbreaks of controversy, individuals have confessed reluctance to reveal the extent of their beliefs for fear of losing status or being ostracized by a particular community, to avoid employment difficulties, or relieve pressure from friends and family.

== See also ==
* [[:Category:Otherkin|Otherkin users on WikiFur]]
* [[Wikipedia:Otherkin|Otherkin]] on [[Wikipedia]]
* [[Otakukin]]
* [[Theri There]], a webcomic about otherkin

== References ==

<references/>

== External links ==

*[http://www.otherkin.net Otherkin.net]
*[http://z3.invisionfree.com/Otherkin/ An Otherkin Message Board]
*[http://www.thegreenwolf.com/afgto.html A Field Guide to Otherkin] at [http://www.immanion-press.com Immanion Press]

[[Category:Culture]]
[[Category:Terms]]

{{featured article}}

Talk:Therian

2008-12-25T18:39:26Z

Trpdwarf: /* Two things I feel necessary to bring up. */

Talk:Therian

2008-12-25T18:35:00Z

Trpdwarf: /* Two things I feel necessary to bring up. */

Talk:Therian

2008-12-25T18:30:18Z

Trpdwarf: /* Two things I feel necessary to bring up. */

Therian

2008-12-25T18:24:16Z

Trpdwarf:

:Main article at [[Therianthropy]].

'''Therians''' are people who believe that they have an intrinsic, personal, and integral connection to (an) animal(s). That is to say that part of their core being is animal, be it spiritually, mentally, et cetera. Unlike [[furry lifestyle]]rs, therians do not try to outwardly project their animalistic nature, nor do they choose the animal side they are inherently born with. Therians may also be called "shifters", though this can be a contentious term as a growing number feel they do not actually change from one state to another and do not reflect a human-animal state by having an animal soul and a human body.

There are three categorized types of ''shifts'' acknowledged by the therian community:
* '''Mental (M-Shift)''' - A case where, for psychological reasons, a person has an animal-human mental state.
* '''Spiritual (S-Shift)''' - A case where, for spiritual reasons, a person has an animal-human mental state.
* '''Physical (P-Shift)''' - People who can magically or scientifically change forms.

Other types of shifts have been categorized from these terms and can be found in the links as listed below.

In spite of these formal definitions M-shift has become the dominant term to refer to any non-physical shift, whether for psychological reasons or spiritual reasons.

Shifting, in general, means times when animalistic aspects become, either through voluntary methods like meditation or drugs, or involuntarily, dominant over human aspects of the person's personality. This may include, but not be limited to, feelings of "phantom limbs" or fur, keener senses, desires to bite or hunt, feelings of instincts not usual to humans, etc. This shifting, however, is not limited to therians alone, as anyone is capable of bringing on an animalistic shift. Shifting is not an inherent, or required part of therianthropy.

P-shifting is the most controversial. As a general rule, it's more used as a term to discuss fictional [[transformation]]s rather than literal ones; people claiming to p-shift in any way are usually met with aggressive skepticism and are often accused of being [[roleplay]]ers. Any respectable therian community will require proof before they would allow anyone to discuss this ability. As such, no self-proclaimed Pshifter has ever offered up proof of their shifting ability.
Some Therian groups view the "physical shift" as NOT being an actual change into an animal, but an intense physiological change, which may include heightened senses, increased strength, etc.

Therians differ from the [[Furry lifestyle]] in that they do not try to mimic or bring their animal into their daily lives. Therians understand their nature as being -human- and -animal- and as thus feel no need to pretend or 'play the role' of the animal, save in some circumstances. Therians also do not, in any way, choose their animal side, they are born into it. It takes a great deal of introspection and understanding for a therian to come to terms with their inner animal nature. The therian nature is not based on stereotypes (such as a wolf howling at the moon, or a lion's courage).

Usually, therians have one animal aspect, or [[phenotype]], but some have two or more. Generally, these people are referred to as ''Polyweres'' [alternate term: Pan-Therian], and can be a source of controversy, as single-aspect therians often cannot relate to how a multiple-animal therian could exist, especially in the context of having an animal soul. Many are therian-[[otherkin]] mixes, such as wolf-dragons or cat-vampires.

==See also==
*[[Otherkin]]
*[[Therianthropy]]
*[[Furry lifestyle]]

==External links==
* [http://www.werelist.com/ the Werelist]
* [http://therian.wikia.com/ Therian.Wikia]

[[Category:culture]]
[[Category:terms]]
[[Category:spirituality]]

Talk:Therian

2008-12-25T18:22:12Z

Trpdwarf: /* Two things I feel necessary to bring up. */

Talk:Therian

2008-12-25T18:18:07Z

Trpdwarf: /* Two things I feel necessary to bring up. */ new section

Therian

2008-12-25T17:49:37Z

Trpdwarf:

:Main article at [[Therianthropy]].

'''Therians''' are people who believe that they have an intrinsic, personal, and integral connection to (an) animal(s). That is to say that part of their core being is animal, be it spiritually, mentally, et cetera. Unlike [[furry lifestyle]]rs, therians do not try to outwardly project their animalistic nature, nor do they choose the animal side they are inherently born with. Therians may also be called "shifters", though this can be a contentious term as a growing number feel they do not actually change from one state to another and do not reflect a human-animal state by having an animal soul and a human body.

There are three categorized types of ''shifts'' acknowledged by the therian community:
* '''Mental (M-Shift)''' - A case where, for psychological reasons, a person has an animal-human mental state.
* '''Spiritual (S-Shift)''' - A case where, for spiritual reasons, a person has an animal-human mental state.
* '''Physical (P-Shift)''' - People who can magically or scientifically change forms.

Other types of shifts have been categorized from these terms and can be found in the links as listed below.

In spite of these formal definitions M-shift has become the dominant term to refer to any non-physical shift, whether for psychological reasons or spiritual reasons.

Shifting, in general, means times when animalistic aspects become, either through voluntary methods like meditation or drugs, or involuntarily, dominant over human aspects of the person's personality. This may include, but not be limited to, feelings of "phantom limbs" or fur, keener senses, desires to bite or hunt, feelings of instincts not usual to humans, etc. This shifting, however, is not limited to therians alone, as anyone is capable of bringing on an animalistic shift. Shifting is not an inherent, or required part of therianthropy.

P-shifting is the most controversial. As a general rule, it's more used as a term to discuss fictional [[transformation]]s rather than literal ones; people claiming to p-shift in any way are usually met with aggressive skepticism and are often accused of being [[roleplay]]ers. Any respectable therian community will require proof before they would allow anyone to discuss this ability. As such, no self-proclaimed Pshifter has ever offered up proof of their shifting ability.
Some Therian groups view the "physical shift" as NOT being an actual change into an animal, but an intense physiological change, which may include heightened senses, increased strength, etc.

Therians differ from the [[Furry lifestyle]] in that they do not try to mimic or bring their animal into their daily lives. Therians understand their nature as being -human- and -animal- and as thus feel no need to pretend or 'play the role' of the animal, save in some circumstances. Therians also do not, in any way, choose their animal side, they are born into it. It takes a great deal of introspection and understanding for a therian to come to terms with their inner animal nature. The therian nature is not based on stereotypes (such as a wolf howling at the moon, or a lion's courage).

Usually, therians have one animal aspect, or [[phenotype]], but some have two or more. Generally, these people are referred to as ''Polyweres'' [alternate term: Pan-Therian], and can be a source of controversy, as single-aspect therians often cannot relate to how a multiple-animal therian could exist, especially in the context of having an animal soul. Many are therian-[[otherkin]] mixes, such as wolf-dragons or cat-vampires.

A distinction between mythical therians and otherkin can be found however, as many otherkin seem to believe they have a 'past life' or an 'alternate existence/persona' which makes up their otherkin nature. Therians do not see their animalistic nature as being separate from themselves and as thus many of these types of mythicals have joined therian community.

==See also==
*[[Otherkin]]
*[[Therianthropy]]
*[[Furry lifestyle]]

==External links==
* [http://www.werelist.com/ the Werelist]
* [http://therian.wikia.com/ Therian.Wikia]

[[Category:culture]]
[[Category:terms]]
[[Category:spirituality]]