{{User talk:GreenReaper/Header}}


== Trying to start a new chat with GreenReaper! ==

GreenReaper! THANK YOU SO MUCH for helping me figure this place out! And for cleaning up my article, I'm still figuring out how the formatting and stuff works...

--[[User:Gavinfox|Gavinfox]] 02:56, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:You're welcome! We all had to learn it at some point, so don't be too concerned if you don't get things looking perfect to start with. The important thing is contributing the information, which only you can do - other people can worry about formatting if they care. :-) --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 02:59, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

::Well... I made a WHOLE LOT of changes...uhm, why is it that KYFurs and KyFurs are different articles? is there any way to make it non case sensitive? Also, something that would help the wikifur search FIND articles when people are looking to find furries in kentucky would be useful... any help?--[[User:Gavinfox|Gavinfox]] 03:37, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:::There is not a way to make it case-insensitive (in some cases, it matters) - you just have to redirect one page to the other. Not really sure what you can do about the finding, other than ensure that it is linked appropriately from other pages. Hopefully if they search for kentucky they should find a few links (or if they go through the [[:Category:Regional|regional category]].

::well, should I put my questions here or in the chat you sent me? I put some in the other one... I'm still not great at formatting, but I've tried to change as many articles that could reference kyfurs as possible.. including the mailing lists, which STILL listed fuzzky as the primary kentucky furry mailing list. :( --[[User:Gavinfox|Gavinfox]] 03:47, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:::I tend to put them in both, but if you have to pick one, I'd say talk on the other person's user talk page, because then they get the notice. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 03:53, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Recent Vandal ==

Looks like we hit that block at the same time, question though, which one applies as I blocked for 3 days you blocked for 30. o.O; --[[User:Nidonocu|Nidonocu]] - [[User talk:Nidonocu|talk]] [[Image:Trans 168.png|16px|Nidonocu]] 05:57, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:Probably both. Yours just expires first. :-) --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 05:59, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

::Second point actually, all their edits just disappeared from RC, how so? o.O --[[User:Nidonocu|Nidonocu]] - [[User talk:Nidonocu|talk]] [[Image:Trans 168.png|16px|Nidonocu]] 05:59, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:::I clicked on their IP address to get contributions, added '''&bot=1''' to the URL to make it look like I was a bot, then opened all the rollback links in new tabs. Hey presto, disappeared edits, and the reversions don't show up on recent changes unless you look specifically. Neat, no? :-) --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 06:02, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:::Nifty! :D --[[User:Nidonocu|Nidonocu]] - [[User talk:Nidonocu|talk]] [[Image:Trans 168.png|16px|Nidonocu]] 06:05, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Go ahead for Community Portal rename ==

Heya, hope you are having fun at the PDC. ;) Just wanted to ask really when you next check up on us if I can ask permission (yes, I know, be bold, but this is kinda very bold so..) to make a page requesting people to suggest names for the [[Community Portal]], following my notes [[WikiFur_talk:WikiFur_Central_Version_2#Planning_for_redesign|here]] over the redesign of the two major site pages. Then remove the Wikimedia fundraiser link (since the drive is over now) and replace the site notice with a notice asking for name suggestions, and linking to that page. --[[User:Nidonocu|Nidonocu]] - [[User talk:Nidonocu|talk]] [[Image:Trans 168.png|16px|Nidonocu]] 13:25, 13 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:Sounds like a good idea. I'm sure people can come up with a few good ideas ofer the next week or so. Try and keep [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] to one line on 1024 width, or 800 if you can. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 20:01, 13 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== "New" items on front page... ==

...don't seem to be updating. Just a heads-up.

-Zorin

:The items on the front page don't update automatically, they have to be updated manually by editors. This is done whenever people feel it is needed. --[[User:Nidonocu|Nidonocu]] - [[User talk:Nidonocu|talk]] [[Image:Trans 168.png|16px|Nidonocu]] 18:59, 13 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:Yep. Instructions for updating them are at the [[WikiFur:Community Portal|community portal]]. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 20:03, 13 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Who are you on FM? ==

What is your username on [[FurryMUCK]]? There is no user named "GreenReaper" on FM and I wished to speak to you. Could you please send a pagemail to "Rackety" on FM? I wanted to ask you a few questions. I might also be able to provide you with some images to use. Thank you. :)

:''Replied privately.'' --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 07:44, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Random Access ==
'Lo there. This is the person formerly known as Random. I've left the furry thing entirely a few years ago, but I still know some people who have contacts there. One those people let me know about this and the page about Random. I would deeply appreciate if you'd leave the Random page as it is now. Thanks.

--Random

:Hi there! Judging by your edits I would assume you are referring particularly to the inclusion of your name on the article. I can understand your concern. Although we try to keep pages as freely-editable as possible, and so I do not intend to lock your page entirely, the WikiFur community also tries not to be vindicative, especially with regard to people who may have moved on.

:Without being given an overriding reason for it being present, I shall ensure that your name is not present on the article. I have posted on the [[Talk:Random|talk page]] and left a note to this effect. The neutrality of the article should also be maintained - if you or others notice text that apears to contradict this, you are welcome to modify it, as long as the facts reain. I hope this is satisfactory! --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 03:31, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Burned Furs/Furrlough/Barr Wars Etc ==
Hey there, just wanted to say thanks for the consideration...yes, I admit to being biased somewhat in favor of the Burned Furs, but then again I was in the thick of all that. At one point, 10% of AFF traffic was just me. Fielding attacks from people bound and determined to paint the lot of us as anti-gay, pro-Nazi psuedofascists became an all-time job. So I'm a bit biased there. -;>

Also glad to have been able to add to the other bits: again, I'm a long-time furfan (about 12 years going now) and have witnessed or been directly involved in a lot of this stuff. --[[User:68.99.136.141|68.99.136.141]]

:No problem! I have the opposite situation - I know very little of the history of the furry fandom. Fortunately, I can rely on those within it to fill in the details or adjust things if they are incorrect - all I have to do is help them with the technical issues of doing it, or (occasionally) mediate when they cannot agree. It seems to work out, so far at least. :-) --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 07:11, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)

::I do need to point out, though, that Burned Fur was never, at any time, "anti furry". We were anti-bad-press. Our entire point was that using common sense and a little discretion would solve pretty much the entire problem. We did not advocate "running people out of the fandom". But there are easily a dozen posts to WikiFur alleging various acts or intents on our part which exist only in the minds of those making the allegations.

::For example, the section on FAASA refers to that group's desire to "remove bestialists and zoophiles from Furry Fandom", then goes on to suggest the problem FAASA raises is one of "sinful" activities --- as opposed to out and out illegal activities, which bestiality and zoophilia are. There's no issue of "sin" here; it's a crime being talked about. For that matter, Burned Fur never talks about "sin" at all nor does it couch any of its arguments in religious terms, yet the article on FAASA claims that "all Anti-Furries" of the period shared the religious angle. In the following section, both FAASA and Burned Fur are specifically listed as Anti-Furry (as opposed to just being referred to in the previous link) --- which is essentially an advocation that bestiality and zoophilia ARE part and parcel of Furry Fandom.

::I will state, however, that complaints were in fact lodged with the Alt.* hierarchy regarding alt.lifestyle.furry, expressly because threads promoting the bestiality and zoophile lifestyles appeared there. The promotion of illegal activities is against the Usenet charter, so we simply informed the Usenet authorities that the system was being abused. They warned the posters, who took down the thread, and that was that...just as it's supposed to work whenever anyone anywhere on the Usenet abuses it to promote illegality. No one contacted any carriers to have the group yanked, and it would have been an extensive waste of time and effort to even try calling a tiny percentage of the necessary carriers.

::All in all, it looks like the article was written by someone on the opposing side. For example, it's true that "only" two members of the fandom were defending the group --- which amounted to any given standard for an AFF flamewar; you generally only had two or three dedicated people per side, with maybe a handful of kibitzers chiming in at odd intervals. Manawolf's linked "counteressay" starts right off attacking "hate and intolerance" --- against bestiality and zoophilia.

::Although Manawolf makes clear she understands the issue is ONLY over these two issues, she calls for "an effort to understand and accept". This is illegal activity. It can't lawfully be condoned. She appears to be ignorant of this, but ironically throws in the accusation that FAASA is "ignorant". Of what, she doesn't say. She DOES, however, argue in a separate essay for the presumption of morality concerning bestiality. Assuming one were to accept this at face value, it still wouldn't address the illegality. She also claims that no one's ever assaulted her idea of trying to moralize the act of sexually brutalizing an animal, which is false: I have. She simply ignored it.

::These errors and presumptions should be corrected.

:::Whew. That's a long post. Here's an equally long reply:

:::Firstly, I would say that overall (and in my view), the Burned Furs were, in fact, intolerant of specific people or groups who considered themselves within the furry fandom. If their members ''were'' tolerant, they would have tolerated the state of affairs. The point is that they did '''not''' wish to tolerate it, and instead called for action to dissuade people from representing themselves as members of the fandom - or optionally, to create a whole new fandom without them. When there are documented examples of Squee Rat using phrases like [http://burnedfur.mv.com/proposal.html "nutballs", "expel every last wacko from the fanbase" and "twitching crack babies"], it is hard to believe that at least some Burned Furs did not, in fact, want these people to leave the fandom. This is not a case of just getting them to be more discreet. It is a case of not associating with them at all.

:::I understand your position regarding illegality being the motivation (although, again, the above statements suggest that there's a certain about of moral judgement in there as well). It is a valid concern. However, I disagree with your statements that seem to imply that [[zoophilia]] (or, indeed, bestiality) is universally an illegal act. It is true to say that it is illegal in [[Wikipedia:Zoophilia#Legal_status|many areas]], either specifically or under the guise of animal abuse (though I'd say that abuse would have to be proven).

:::It is possible that the contributors who wrote the article up until that point were "against" the Burned Fur movement, or at least saw it in a detrimental light. This may simply reflect the average community view (which is not to say that it is the correct state for the article, but it is understandable).

:::I'm not sure where you get the "against the usenet charter" from. Each newsgroup has its own charter - the alt.lifestyle.furry one is [http://www.tigerden.com/infopage/furry/alf-charter.txt here]. I agree that such posts might be against acceptable use policies.

:::I can't comment on Manawolf's actions, either, as I do not know the history behind them. If you can provide her stated assertions and the evidence refuting them (assumably you made your statements at a prior date to hers), that might be useful information. Note that WikiFur isn't intended to continue conflicts, it might have relevance to the Burned Fur article, if she was involved with the Burned Furs.

:::I would however say that an argument for the morality of bestiality is also an argument against the illegality of acts related to them, and that if the essay were accepted by readers it would address both moralistic and legalistic dilemma. That is, if people accepted that such acts were morally justified, they would be in support of repealing such laws as there were (and if such laws existed, they wouldn't be supported). Thus, the article attempts to indirectly affects the legal view by appealing to a change in the moralistic values. This is exactly what she means by "an effort to understand and accept". It is the same argument that marijuana users might make, despite the fact that in some areas the use of marijuana is illegal - that it shouldn't be, and that people should accept that some people want to use it.

:::To take a more related example, it might be illegal to have sex with another person of the same gender, but perhaps it should be legal to advocate it, in the hopes that if people agree with your right to do so, you won't get a bad reputation anymore. Obviously bestiality/zoophilia is not at this point yet, but then nor was homosexuality 60 years ago. Opinions can change, though laws are slower to do so. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 09:05, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)

I will remind you that I did not claim that Burned Furs were "tolerant" of those things they spoke against. I specifically said they were not. And no, I have not said that there was not a desire for certain people to leave the fandom. If I believe a President should be impeached for specific reasons, this does not amount to anything wrong --- it is simply my opinion. Even if I call for other people to join me in that impeachment call, neither is that wrong. We are not talking about a lynch mob here.

"Not associating" with the aforementioned people neither created nor solved the problem. The problem was that many furries found themselves hounded from the fandom by their friends, family, and sometimes even their employers, because of the poor word of mouth --- and later, press coverage --- the fandom obtained. Every scrap of that bad coverage and poor word of mouth has concerned people who refuse to be discreet in their sexual lifestyles. Going right back to your own quote of Squee Rat, I note that "expelling every last wacko from the fan base" comes up as a matter of idle fantasy, not a matter of actual intent. Sure, and I'd like to see the Republican and Democrat Parties as a whole rise up and throw out all the scumbags, but I don't think you're about to suggest that I'm going to base a political movement on this premise.

The simple fact is that, if Furries with alternate lifestyles did not try to press upon the rest of the world just exactly what their lifestyles ARE, there would not be a problem.

And why do ANY of us HAVE to know? It was never my business to know that the friendly gryphon down the street masturbates to Road Rover pics off the Internet, so if he MAKES it my business, do I not have the right to be offended? Why am I not allowed to accept someone without having to know that he swings both ways and screws a stuffed pig named Mimi on Saturdays? This is the problem --- there are people in the fandom who are not satisfied with having a sexual lifestyle different from others. For these people, it must be made public, and more importantly must be ACCEPTED, as though my opinion meant a damn to him in the first place. And if I don't accept, if I have any kind of problem with any given thing he does, I'M the one attacked for being "hateful".

"However, I disagree with your statements that seem to imply that [[zoophilia]] (or, indeed, bestiality) is universally an illegal act."

I may have wound up clipping it out, but I thought I noted that bestiality is not yet illegal in a handful of states. Nonetheless, it does not have to be universally illegal for it to be opposed where appropriate. The reason I included the term "zoophilia" is because the original article defended it under the same terms as bestiality, and in zoo circles the two terms are often interchangeable.

That said, it's also a fact that one can be a zoophile and NOT break any laws. Drawing a picture of a man raping a sheep isn't illegal, for instance. Nor is selling it. As long as the animal in question is entirely fictitious, no laws are being broken. Of course, the same is true of someone who draws pictures of babies being strangled. If someone is offended by any of this, they certainly have the right to voice their disapproval. That is neither censorship nor fascism of any stripe, but FAASA and BFs were routinely accused of such by their opposition.

I mention Manawolf, and her views, because they are directly linked right from the FAASA article, and presented as a core point of the opposition to FAASA.

"This is exactly what she means by "an effort to understand and accept"."

I'm sorry, but that's not a logical statement and must be taken out of context to effect the meaning you seem to wish to attribute. What Manawolf said, specifically, was that bestiality and zoophilia should be understood AND ACCEPTED. You cannot make an "effort" to "accept" something; either you do or you don't. I cannot make an "effort" to enjoy refried beans or asparagus. The only thing I can do is make an "effort" to wolf them down and try not to taste them while I'm at it. You can eventually change your mind as to what you will or won't accept, but if my opinion in FAVOR of bestiality would be respected, then my opinion AGAINST bestiality should likewise be respected, even if not agreed with, and Manawolf has made clear she does not respect any opinion which does not approve of it.

Manawolf certainly has every right to call for a revisitation of the issue, and make her case, and if she does not convince enough people that the law should be changed, then she has lost and that's that. To date, she has not won her case, but you seem to be suggesting that until she does, I should act as though she already has.

There can be no legitimate comparison of homosexuality and bestiality for this singular reason: animals are not sapient, and as such cannot give consent. Manawolf's argument, that an animal can indicate a desire for sex (and thus consent) ignores the fact that a human child may do the same and yet remain legally incapable of giving consent. The capacity for consent is not based in law upon whether or not someone is technically capable of signaling a desire for it --- it is based on the presumption that a person will, over time, develop the capacity to use calculated judgement in deciding where, when and how they will have sex. Animals never develop that calculated judgement, and thus cannot give consent.

Thus, bestiality will always be exactly what it is: abuse of animals for sexual gratification, and animal abuse should not be tolerated. If society is to say differently 60 years down the road, fine, but society does not say that now, nor does the law where applicable. --[[User:68.99.136.141|68.99.136.141]]

== Just so you know (DMFA) ==

You are right in believing that the Wikipedia article [[Wikipedia:DMFA (webcomic)|Dan and Mab's Furry Adventures]], which was copied onto the Wikifur article [[Dan and Mab's Furry Adventures]], was created by fans of the series. Actually, it was initially started by me before realizing I hadn't logged in. ^^; [[User:Poofyspikes|Poofyspikes]] 01:46, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:Hehe, yeah - I seem to remember the forum thread on [[The Nice]]. That's how the system's meant to work, so it's good to know it is. :-) --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 04:25, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Happy birthday! ==

And enjoy your cake. :) [[User:Almafeta|Almafeta]] 13:01, 19 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Many Happy Returns and best wishes on your [[Wikipedia:Birthday|Birthday]]! n_n --[[User:Nidonocu|Nidonocu]] - [[User talk:Nidonocu|talk]] [[Image:Trans 168.png|16px|Nidonocu]] 13:16, 19 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== User #213 ==

I just wanted to comment on the fact that there is a slight problem with this user account in that its [[WikiFur:Naming conventions (technical restrictions)|technically impossible]] to talk to them since # isn't a valid title for a page. Both [[User:#213]] and [[User talk:#213]] will fail to work. Is there any chance we can sort something about that? --[[User:Nidonocu|Nidonocu]] - [[User talk:Nidonocu|talk]] [[Image:Trans 168.png|16px|Nidonocu]] 14:38, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:I believe that is a feature intended to stop people seeing which users were affected by an IP block by just showing their internal ID number (unless there really is a user called #213, but I don't think there is). Since (I think?) only one user was banned, it's pretty easy to see who that was. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 15:54, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Blanking Mix ==

Mix has requested his page be blanked, and that all influence of him be removed from this wiki. It seems the administration here has a problem with that. The policies state that he is allowed to do this. So why are some people allowed to do this when others are not? In the long run, the only real policy that has been broached here is the inability to reach a consensus and the absolutly incredible vindictiveness of actual administrators to purposefully and repeatedly smear a guy.

:I disagree with your use of the word "smear". People - and yes, this includes some administrators - are trying to work towards a situation where ''non''-personal information that is relevant to an article is preserved while providing a '''fair''' coverage of facts. The simple truth is that some people find those actions that were actually taken distasteful.

:The policies state that he is allowed to request the removal of personal information, or to blank his page. By the end of the day, if the situation is not resolved, it ''will'' be blanked. But the personal information that we have on him is '''positive''' so I would kinda like to avoid that. Otherwise, we just make him look like less of a person and more of a stereotypical [[goon]].

:: He already looks like a goon! All the edits on him that make him look like a complete ass are coming from administrators here. They aren't NPOV, they're vindictive and cold. He's saying he's willing to sacrifice the good because it will also eliminate the bad. Making him look good on his article page does not mean its fair to make him look bad on every other page he can fit on.

:::Why not submit your own NPOV edit then? So long as the facts are included, I don't see any problems. --[[User:Dmuth|Dmuth]] 16:54, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

SA and Burned Fur have a huge history of sending people to convnetions and doing things. Yet, he's the only one mentioned. I saw that something awful hand gernade on a lot of things at AC, a lot of shirts, yet Mix is the only one getting publically ridiculed. I saw people harassing the hell out of him at AC. And it continues here. The guy has been asked to be left alone. Can he please be left alone?[[User:Redcard|Redcard]] 16:26, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:That's up to the people maintining the article. Maybe out of fairness, those other people should be mentioned too, so it's not only Mix there. I don't know about the situation so I can't do that myself.

:: THe people maintaining the article are mostly administrators who revert every time Mix tries to say something and who apparently are refusing to communicate with him.

:People ridicule [[Sibe]] as well. Is that justified? Is it better to state the things that people have done in the hope that it stops them doing more, or not to, in the hopes that they will stop on their own? Posts on tevildo's livejournal seem to ''suggest'' that doing nothing has led to no change. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 16:36, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
:: Er - I assume you mean Taren, not me - the link Mix posted on the discussion page? I have no more personal involvement with Mix other than having had his behaviour at AC described to me by other friends. Unless you're referring to something else? Anyway. What I would suggest is that Mix's entry is put to "exclude", but we keep references to the incident on the SA page itself, and possibly the AC05 page when that goes up. The facts are - the incident happened, it caused controversy at the time. It should be mentioned _somewhere_, I think. [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] 17:15, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

::: Sorry, yes, Taren. And yes, that's my view. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 17:35, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:: This should NOT be a court room. It should be an encyclopedia. The policies themselves say that Wikifur is not to be a battle ground. Mix wishes to not be a part of Wikifur. The mostly administrators who are editing that article are making him a part of Wikifur and are creating an antagonistic setting. He has requested per the policy to be blanked. What's so hard to understand about that? The administrators and others have latched onto his SA involvement, have made an effort to hurt him, and he is trying to disengage completely. What's so bad about letting this fight stop? [[User:Redcard|Redcard]] 16:46, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:::We (or certainly I, and it seems others too) don't agree that he should not be mentioned '''at all''' just because he doesn't want to be. We're willing to remove information that would be considered personal (although he doesn't have much of that, and what there is seems positive), but the general opinion appears to be that he should not be allowed to just remove mentions of actions that people thought significant, perhaps ''especially'' because people saw them in a bad light. Ultimately, the policy is there to reflect the general opinion of the community, not to enforce strictures on a majority disagreement with it. As far as I can see nobody is making inaccurate assertions about him. Plenty of people saw him there. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 17:35, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:He is not being ridiculed. Ridicule implies that he is being mocked or made fun of, and that is not what is happening. His actions have been documented, which includes his side of the story, and people who have disputed his side of the story.

:Regarding the claim of "people harassing the hell out of him at AC", this is the first I have heard of it. I run the Convention Operations office at Anthrocon, and I find it strange that no reports were made either to the office or to security. I also find the timing of this complaint a little suspicious, seeing that it's only being mentioned just now, a good 2 months after the convention ended. --[[User:Dmuth|Dmuth]] 16:40, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

::Oh please. I trust con security about as far as I can throw them when it comes to things regarding safety of con-attendees. A lot of people feel the same way. You're surprised nobody told you that people were picking on a fur who was wearing a shirt of an unpopular group? Duh. Most people know better than to swim upstream. [[User:Redcard|Redcard]] 16:46, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:::Please stop with the FUD and rhetoric. I've personally worked with [[Dorsai Irregulars|The Dorsai]] for the last 4 Anthrocons, and they are about the most trustworthy and professional people I've dealt with. I do not believe that "not trusting" security is a valid reason for not bringing a harassment complaint to the our attention. Furthermore, had there been a bona fide cast of harassment taking place at the con, word would have spread very quickly after the con via LiveJournal, Usenet, etc. and it would have made its way back to us. Since this is literally the first we have heard of it, I question whether it really happened. It also does not changes the facts of what he did and wore while at the convention. --[[User:Dmuth|Dmuth]] 16:54, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:::: There is no FUD here. I don't report things to con-security anymore unless its directly life threatening since I reported people for selling and showing pornographic artwork to minors and I was mocked and ridiculed. Admittingly, this did not happen at AC, but at another convention. After further security lapses at various other conventions and the feeling of being made into a tattletale , I decided that I no longer cared what I saw. As for the Dorsais, yes, they are a reputable group and are a great team. However, the animosity that furs feel reporting things to security staff extends to conventions beyond Dorsai's involvement. Meaning, I developed the rule that I don't report things at other conventions, and that ingrained behavior stayed with me through AC. I only truthfully found out about the DI's after AC (as that weekend was a blur). Had I known they were there, I would have reported what I saw. [[User:Redcard|Redcard]] 16:58, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

::::: Well, I must say that I'm somewhat shocked about your experiences with other con security teams. That just blows my mind. I guess I can understand your reasons for not wanting to report any problems. --[[User:Dmuth|Dmuth]] 17:05, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
::::::Remember that most cons cannot afford a professional security team and don't have access to the Dorsai. Most of the people you see on cons security at these cons have very little training in man management, personality, security, or control. They're just average furs who've volunteered. Very few of them even seem to have any reporting process in play. They're just furs with very little professional security experience other than these conventions.[[User:Redcard|Redcard]] 17:16, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

::::::: Actually, the Dorsai work for free or pretty close to it. We just provide them with rooms to sleep in and they handle their own schedules and pretty much run themselves. I'm actually confused as to why other furry cons haven't made use of their services. --[[User:Dmuth|Dmuth]] 17:22, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

::::::::I don't know. I just know that from the sci-fi cons I've been to that they've been at that they are a good group of people who seem to have their stuff together. And that they are the exception, and not the rule, for typical furry con security. Most people view con-security as overbearing control freaks, and they just avoid them like the plague. Everyone seems to have horror stories too. [[User:Redcard|Redcard]] 17:28, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Misinformation ==

I think [[User:24.20.194.136]] is adding misinformation (all the edits about North Star Kung Fu). -- [[User:Rat|Rat]] 09:51, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:Yes, it does seem to have been a little odd. Someone trying to perpetuate an in-joke, I believe. Thanks for taking action. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 17:10, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Normal animal info ==

People seem to be copying lots of articles on animals from Wikipedia... I'm not sure this is appropriate, do we NEED normal articles on what an animal is? These things are not necessarily furry, as they have no connection with anthropomorphism. I think maybe some of these articles should be deleted. I mean, check the recent stuff that [[User:Tengu|Tengu]] and [[User:Rat|Rat]] did... :(

:Well, if you have disagreements with a person's edits you should really take it up with them first rather than me. :-)

:In general, we do try to discourage copying just for the sake of increasing article count. If it is a particularly furry topic, then yes, copying is appropriate. Sometimes it's more appropriate to put a short summary including the link to the wikipedia article, followed by the furry content for the topic. Sometimes it's appropriate just to convert all links to the topic on WikiFur to links to the Wikipedia article. It depends on just how related something is to the furry fandom.

btw, how do I make an article flagged for a mod to look at it, or put in a vote for speedy deletion? I mean, look at half of the articles under species... many of them are just normal species articles. --[[User:Gavinfox|Gavinfox]] 17:11, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:You can tag it by adding <nowiki>{{SpeedyDelete}}</nowiki> at the top. We really need a non-speedy-delete, too! Bear in mind that there is no particular ''cost'' for having pages around - they should really only be deleted if doing so would result in a better experience for the user. If you feel there are inappropriate amounts of copied text, you could always convert the name of the article to a link to the Wikipedia article and leave a short summary, plust the furry-speicfic info. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 18:24, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Thanksgiving target ==

Considering the rate at which new articles are currently being added, it's pretty clear that the wiki will reach 200 articles around the beginning of November rather than by Thanksgiving. The "2000 articles by Thanksgiving" blurb begins to look like something of a straw man at this point, set up to guarantee success.

Also, considering that disambiguation is insisted upon in articles like "Northern Furs" to prevent them from having an assumed American PoV, should a date like "Thanksgiving" really be used? It falls on the second Monday of October in Canada, and isn't celebrated at all in Europe or Australia.

--{{ UT|Ostrich}} 13:51, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:Adjusted to "by November". --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 06:25, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Well, you never know, we could reach that target by the Canuck Thanksgiving. ;) --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 15:55, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:Good point. I remember being confused at first when I read ''Summon the Keeper'' (by Tanya Huff), which is set in Canada, when Thanksgiving was being celebrated before Halloween. I learned soon enough that Canadian Thanksgiving is in early October (this year it's the 10th according to my calendar). --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 17:18, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)

::Perhaps we need to mark Central with [[Template:Limitedgeographicscope|Limitedgeographicscope]]. X-) --[[User:Nidonocu|Nidonocu]] - [[User talk:Nidonocu|talk]] [[Image:Trans 168.png|16px|Nidonocu]] 17:29, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Rule of thumb for stubs. (Gee, that sounds wrong... :) ==

Anyway...how long does an article have to be before it's not a stub anymore? I usually drop the stub templates on articles I create that I feel need more information...even if I've gotten a couple of paragraphs worth already.

Any general guideline, or just go with what sounds right? [[User:CarlFox|Carl Fox]] 05:36, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:I'd say you've pretty much got it there - if there's obviously a lotn more that "needs" to be said, but you can't say it, or don't have time to right now, it's a stub. Maybe a section stub, although we don't exactly have those yet. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 06:24, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Article of the Day? ==

Just to comment: I run the [http://ia.wikipedia.org interlingua wikipedia], which has roughly as many articles as WikiFur does right now, and we do an article of the <i>week</i>, not article of the <i>day</i>. Until WikiFur gets to about 10'000 articles, that might be a better choice. [[User:Almafeta|Almafeta]] 12:21, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:I think it's certainly something that needs changing. Have opened it to general discussion at [[WikiFur talk:Featured articles]]. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 05:09, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== First-person articles ==

To the extent that this wiki can be considered a history, it's an unusual one, in that the people writing it are in many cases the people about whose deeds it is being written.

In particular point of fact, there's been a debate in the article [[Burned_Furs]] about whether and to what extent BF's behaviour resulted in the [[Vanity_Fair]] article. I'm quite able to give an authoritative answer to this question, but it would require that I abandon the neutral, third-person PoV which seems to be the wiki standard. I'm sure I'm not the only person in such a position.

Is there a standard in place to allow first-person information to be added, when relevant to the topic? --{{ UT|Ostrich}} 07:57, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:Sorry for replying to this late - I didn't see it as it got put at the end of another section. I would suggest that you write it on a subpage of your user space (like [[User:Ostrich/Burned Furs and Vanity Fair]], then link to it appropriately in the main article. You should also put <nowiki>{{personal-article|Ostrich}}</nowiki> at the bottom to make it clear to anyone who's reading that it's a personal opinion article. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 00:04, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)

== Double Redirect Weirdness? ==
I'm not quite sure what to make of the [http://furry.wikicities.com/wiki/Special:DoubleRedirects|double redirect] for Kelsey Peters/Sparkling. To gauge by the warning, it looks like it would be a circular redirect, but it appears that the [[Kelsey Peters]] page redirect is correct. Ideas?--[[User:DuncanDaHusky|Duncan da Husky]] 12:22, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:That is odd. I edited the redirect and it went away, so problem solved! ;-) --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 13:35, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

== Hrm... ==

Seems the system doesn't wanna send me a new password, since I managed to get logged out somehow.
Mind giving the thing a big kick in the nuts and having it send me my password? -- XialLunashine

:There is an email address connected with the account, but it may have a typo in it. To confirm your identity, could you tell me what would it be? --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 04:25, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:Actually, nevermind . . . since you own the domain, we've just sent it to another one that should work. Try now? --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 04:34, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:''It turned out that this was due to the Wikicities mail server being down.'' --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 23:41, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:: Still down, these mail servers? I just sent a password request again, and I'm currently ''tail''ing my procmail log to make sure I'm not hosing the thing with my filters. At this rate, I may as well just register another account. :B -- Xial, who did not get that email on 30 Sep 05.

:::''Talked on IRC, hopefully it'll be sorted by the morning.'' --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 04:37, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)

== Eyes of the Night ==

I would just like to congratulate you on your recent posting on [[Talk:Further_Confusion/Eyes_of_the_Night|a certain issue]]. It encapsulates both the spirit of the Wiki movement as a whole, and your excellent (and, I'm sure, often tested) skills in finding a consensus between the disparate elements of a notoriously combatitive fandom. We _are_ all behind you. :) [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] 20:57, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)

:That means a lot to me. Thank you. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 21:09, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)
::Thank _you_. I know, as a moderator of a furry site myself, that it involves taking a great deal of sh*t from lots of people, with little in the way of tangible rewards; I felt that it was right for me to express my praise for all you've done to make WikiFur the success it is, and will continue to be. [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]]

== Reverting ==

(From [[User Talk:JSB]]) - "You know, you can always revert it yourself! Just click History, then click the date and time prior to the vandal's edit, then click Edit, then save, and it's back where it started from. :-)" I think this should be in a nice, prominent place - the "Help" page, for instance? :) [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] 21:26, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC)

:Then '''be bold''' and add it in! ;-) --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 21:33, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC)
::Done. Didn't know ordinary users could edit the Help page. :) [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]]

== A newbie question... ==

I just added a few country-specific categories to the [[:Category:Regional|Regional category]] page to make the finding of articles useful to one's country's furry community easier, as this gathers them all at one place.
However, I'm not sure how well these fit under the '''Regional''' category - would it probably be better to make a new category, named '''Countries''' or perhaps '''National''' (to make it in the same 'league' as '''Regional''')?
I just thought I should ask for your views on this =) [[User:MKerris|MKerris]] 01:37, 15 Oct 2005 (UTC)

:Good question. I think ideally the things currently in Regional should be in their respective countries, and those countries should be in a category of their own - perhaps [[:Category:Groups by location]] or [[:Category:Groups by country]] or something similar? --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 03:40, 15 Oct 2005 (UTC)

::'''Groups by country''' sounds good to me - thanks for your help :) [[User:MKerris|MKerris]] 13:11, 15 Oct 2005 (UTC)

== Is this allowed or ok? ==

Is [[LoKi|this sort of behavior]] really allowed. I just ran across it today and I am unclear if it violates any terms of use :P --[[User:Ultraviolet|Ultraviolet]]

:I ''personally'' don't mind if people start writing pages about themselves as long as they do contain valid information. Others may have other views. I've made a few changes to try to reduce the implication that his opinion is WikiFur's opinion, but other than that I don't know about the topic (him), so I'm not about to make huge changes. And, to be honest, I'd rather people who view themselves as [[goon]]s were editing pages about themselves rather than pages about other people. :-)

:Feel free to make some of your own if you know something relevant about him that's not mentioned! --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 19:58, 16 Oct 2005 (UTC)

== Something wrong here? ==

It seems like there's something wrong with this page: [[Steve_Gallacci]].
I've tried viewing it in two different browsers (Opera 8.5 and IE 6.0), and they both show the framework to the top and left of the article as being much smaller somehow, which results in the text there being almost unreadable. I find it quite strange that it has (so far) only happened with that particular page... could you look into this? --[[User:MKerris|MKerris]] 21:46, 16 Oct 2005 (UTC)

:It seems the person-stub template didn't like being put at the end of the category list. I tend to put it before External links (as it's a natural place to contribute more to), so I'd not seen that before either. Odd, but easily solved. :-) --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 21:58, 16 Oct 2005 (UTC)

== General page template ==

IS there a general page template anywhere? One I can just cut and paste into a page I'm writing, and then fill in the areas so the format is the same as all the others?

It'd make things easier for lazy people like me :-) --[[User:Banner|Banner]]

:I don't think there is, though you could try this:
<pre>
[[Image:Something.png|right|200px|Title of image]]
'''Something''' is/are . . .

== External links ==

[[Category:Something]]
</pre>
:Frankly, the best way would probably to find a page close to the one you want to edit and copy the style from there. Different pages with different topics and content require different approaches. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 05:28, 22 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Also, StarrBucks has two 'r's in it. Could you edit the refering link and title page? I don't know where that gets done. --[[User:Banner|Banner]]

:[[User:mwalimu|mwalimu]] beat me to the move (click the tab at the top of the page, select the new name). The linking pages to a page can be found by clicking "What links here" at the left of the page. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 05:36, 22 Oct 2005 (UTC)

== Yo GreenReaper ¡ ==

Hello, I'm Alek Fuchs, furmaster of FurryLatino.org, thanks for you comments in the front page of the FurryPedia.

responding to your question:

Yes, I Want to Know More.
X3

Cya ¡¡¡

(Sorry, my english sucks.)

:OK. Here is how it is. I am saying this in English because I do not want a translation program to make my words mean something else. :-)

:[http://wikicities.com Wikicities] provides hosting for community-based wikis, including WikiFur. They manage the servers, the MediaWiki software, the networking, and are also there to offer advice if you need it. It is like a free web hosting company. You and your community manage your wiki - you have control over the layout, and of course the content.

:There are various requirements - these are the most important:
* The wiki would be licensed under the GFDL
* The wiki would be run by the community, '''not''' by you personally
* It would have adverts at the side, like WikiFur does, to help pay for the server. The ads might change, but they will never be popup ads.

:It should be possible to keep your old name as the "name of the wiki", so you would still be "FurryPedia", not "WikiFur Español" - unless, of course, you wanted to be! The DNS name of the site would probably be es.furry.wikicities.com. Similarly you could change it to look how you liked through the MediaWiki CSS system; you would not have to stick to our style, use our logos or rules, or be under our administrators.

:It is important to emphasise that it would still be ''your'' community's wiki - the promotion and success of it would be up to you and the Spanish-speaking furry fans you recruited. I would of course be pleased to mention in our news that you had joined us, and could help if you have wiki-related questions, but I couldn't guarantee any significant personal involvement - I have my own wiki to run! Besides, I have no knowledge of Spanish so would be useless. ;-)

:The main benefit apart from the hosting would be the ease of linking to and from WikiFur articles. You could just put a tag like this: <nowiki>[[en:Fursuit]]</nowiki> - and it would make a link to the WikiFur page, in an "other languages" box. You can see this on most Wikipedia pages, or at [http://es.mac.wikicities.com/ WikiMac], another wikicity. You would be very welcome to take our pages and just translate them, even if you decide not to actually join us at Wikicities.

:I will say I have been very happy with Wikicities, and have always found the people in charge easy to work with (they are mostly the same people who run Wikipedia), but I understand that it is not for everyone. I recommend you [http://wikicities.com/ read more about Wikicities] and see for yourself why you might (or might not) want to join us. --{{UT|GreenReaper}} 18:38, 22 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Hi :)
Thanks for the warm greeting.
Just one question. One person, an especially dramatic fur called korrok, has already began to make insulting and false modifications to the information I've posted. Edits were made anonymously, but traced to her IP, 83.67.30.116
Is there any way to 'lock' entries once written to ensure that no false edits are made?

Hi :)
Thanks for the warm greeting.
Just one question. One person, an especially dramatic fur called korrok, has already began to make insulting and false modifications to the information I've posted. Edits were made anonymously, but traced to her IP, 83.67.30.116
Is there any way to 'lock' entries once written to ensure that no false edits are made?

User talk:GreenReaper

2005-10-24T00:09:03Z

Marsten:

User:Marsten/Me.css

2005-10-24T00:03:58Z

Marsten:

'''Marsten''' is a [[fur]]. There is not much to say about him, because he is fairly quiet most of the time, and therefore few facts are known.

What ''is'' known, however, is that he is a British fur from Scotland. He is a wolf, animator and writer. He is in his young twenties, and is fiercely protective and loyal to his friends. We believe that he became active within the [[furry fandom|fur community]] in the mid 90s. It is unknown when he became [[christian]], but evidence indicates that it was fairly recently.

He has stated in the past that he would sell his left arm to see both David Bowie and The Cure in concert. He is an active member of the [[anime]] community, and we believe that he has a fondness for [[role-playing game|RPG]]s. He does not seem to have much interest in artwork, although some evidence indicates that he has tried his paw at it now and then.

He's expressed some interest in [[fursuit]]ing, but so far has not actively involved himself in fursuitting communities. It is rumoured that he made attendance at [[Anthrocon 2005]], and has stated his intention to make other [[convention]]s in the future. He is a known advocate for the eradication of [[drama]] from the fur community.

He does not drink [[tea]].

He appears to avoid most [[MUCK]]s and IRC channels, but has occasionally been sighted on [[Tapestries MUCK|Tapestries]], and the [[UKFurnet]] and [[macrophile]] forums. He is believed to also be present on [[Second Life]], [[Furcadia]], and few other graphical MMO locations now and then, but these reports are uncertain. He is more frequently found on his livejournal and IM.

He does not seem to go out of his way to draw attention to his writing. The reason for this is unknown. Aside from this, sources of information on Marsten is few and far between.

== External links ==

* [http://www.marsten.furtopia.org/ Marsten's Tavern]
* ''[http://www.livejournal.com/users/vamour/ World's End]'' - Marsten's [[LiveJournal]]
[[Category:People]][[Category:Animators]][[Category:Writers]][[Category:Wolf characters]]

User:Marsten/Me.css

2005-10-23T23:48:28Z

Marsten:

'''Marsten''' is a [[fur]]. There is not much to say about him, because he is fairly quiet most of the time, and therefore few facts are known.

What ''is'' known, however, is that he is a British fur from Scotland. He is a wolf, animator and writer. He is in his young twenties, and is fiercely protective and loyal to his friends. We believe that he became active within the [[furry fandom|fur community]] in the mid 90s. It is unknown when he became [[christian]], but evidence indicates that it was fairly recently.

He has stated in the past that he would sell his left arm to see both David Bowie and The Cure in concert. He is an active member of the [[anime]] community, and we believe that he has a fondness for [[role-playing game|RPG]]s. He does not seem to have much interest in artwork, although some evidence indicates that he has tried his paw at it now and then.

He's expressed some interest in [[fursuit]]ing, but so far has not actively involved himself in fursuitting communities. It is rumoured that he made attendance at [[Anthrocon 2005]], and has stated his intention to make other [[convention]]s in the future. He is a known advocate for the eradication of [[drama]] from the fur community.

He does not drink [[tea]].

He appears to avoid most [[MUCK]]s and IRC channels, but has occasionally been sighted on [[Tapestries MUCK|Tapestries]], and the [[UKFurnet]] and [[macrophile]] forums. He is believed to also be present on [[Second Life]], [[Furcadia]], and few other graphical MMO locations now and then, but these reports are uncertain. He is more frequently found on his livejournal and IM.

He does not seem to go out of his way to draw attention to his writing. The reason for this is unknown. Aside from this, sources of information on Marsten is few and far between.

== External links ==

* [http://www.marsten.furtopia.org/ Marsten's Tavern]
* ''[http://www.livejournal.com/users/vamour/ World's End]'' - Marsten's [[LiveJournal]]
[[Category:People]][[Category:Animators]][[Category:Writers]][[Category:Wolf characters]]