WikiFur - User contributions [en]

User talk:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-08T20:44:44Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Threats do not belong on WikiFur */

Welcome to [[WikiFur]]! Thank you for registering an account - we look forward to working with you. [[Forum:Help desk|Let us know]] if you need any [[Help:Contents|help]] not already provided. If you would like help creating an article or just editing it, don't hesitate to consult the [[Help:Furry Book of Style|Furry Book of Style]] or just contact an [[WikiFur:Administrator|administrator]]. Have a nice day! :-)--[[User:Rat|Rat]] 10:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

== deletions ==

FIRST you delete my Monty Python lines, THEN you delete the image I put as a joke on my user page....

DARNIT, you never let me have ANY fun. :))

[[User:AnthroSamurai|AnthroSamurai]] 14:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

:But I didn't, [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Mozdoc&curid=27861&diff=195385&oldid=195382 Higgs Raccoon did].
:The reason why I removed the template was because while I did find it funny, it also caused your user page to show up in [[:Category:Protected pages]], which might cause some confusion.
:Now, if you'd to include an '''image''' that looks like the protected template (like [http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l93/dougmuth/?action=view&current=protected.jpg this one], or just copy and paste in the template code, I say go for it! Neither of those would cause any issues, and be rather amusing. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 14:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

== Removed "short story" tag ==

Mwalimu, I removed the tag you put on "Tales from the Reservation" because it's definately NOT a short story - The site does not have the entire story transcribed yet. Shoot, there's 3 parts of the story, and part-I is still being transcribed (got 6 pages left to go).

LUCKILY, part-II is only 5 pages, while part-III is 9 pages - because if each part was 17 pages (like part-I is), by the time I got halfway through part-II I would be in a padded cell with my fingers all bandaged up :))

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 20:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

:That's fine, if you wish to reassign it to a more appropriate category. Note, however, that [[:Category:Stories]] is essentially an obsolete and unused category. Perhaps a more appropriate category to assign it to would be [[:Category:Story series]]. --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 20:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I take it there's no category for Science Fiction???
[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

:At present we do not have categories by genre for works of literature (or for any other types of work unless you count Mature as a separate genre). Although [[:Category:Stories]] is unused, the text there is a guide of sorts for what category a story should be categorized in. --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 05:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

== Removal of contributions ==

You know, the end result of you removing your contributions is the loss of quality and content on this wiki - and someone will likely revert to the more desirable versions of those pages you "un-edit". As noted beneath every edit box, contributions are made under the GFDL, which essentially means that your alterations are considered open for the public good. Much as bad edits can be made good (see [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=FurNation_Worlds&action=history the history page for FurNation Worlds], specifically May 23 and 24 as an example of what happens to changes made in anger), so good edits can be retained through the diligence of any contributing party. I only have a special interest in diffs because I see those red !'s next to them, but I do have an interest in preserving good information. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I never signed any waiver or release stating that I lose rights to what I post. If I choose to remove it, that should be my privledge. If this site was not so willing to overlook one of it's users pushing a vendetta (and using absolutely childs ways of doing it) I would not mind contributing. However, I refuse to promote, contribute, or otherwise assist such a site that does condone such.

NOW, if you wish to keep re-adding the information, I can sit here all day reverting it. If you wish to ban me for that, I can simply create a page else detailing exactly what is happening here and why I have removed my contributions. Then this site will quickly gain the same sullied reputation as it's parent - wikipedia.

The choice is yours.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 16:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Contributions are not yours. If you spit in someone's coffee, you can't take it back out, can you? --<big>''' [[User:Brushwell Clinton|Brushwell]] '''</big>[[User_Talk:Brushwell Clinton|T a l k]] 17:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

:Quote: ''I never signed any waiver or release . . .'' Answer: You don't lose your rights - we gain some! It's only an official policy, noted on every edit page (stuck beneath the text box and above the subject field), and included in the user agreement when you create an account:
:''Please note that all contributions to WikiFur are considered to be released under the GFDL (see [[:WikiFur:Copyrights]] for details). If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly '''and redistributed at will''', then don't submit it here.'' (emphasis mine - I refer you again to [[:WikiFur:Copyrights]], which specifically covers this behavior)

:I am not party to your complaint, and have no wish to be party to an edit war. I'm trying to be neutral here. However, I see this as childish behavior, destructive to the wiki and to yourself. I, personally, will not ban you today, but I ''am'' going to seek consensus with other Administrators on your behavior if it continues; and you may yet receive that ban. I would especially note that [[User talk:Brushwell Clinton#Don't push it lad|your recent comment to fellow editor Brushwell Clinton]] can be considered a threat, and if you want even a hint of support from me, you might want to apologize to him and/or remove it.
: -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:22, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you SIEGE for showing that there ARE in fact double standards on wikifur.

Your directives are noted.... In this instance however, they are rejected. Should you be foolish enough to apply policy to me, while once again ignoring it in one of your own, then you will not only further prove that double standard, but can expect neither respect nor compliance.

Karma's a bitch.... And I act as her agent ;)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 19:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

:Oh please. You're not above the law. None of us are. Stop acting like you are. You submitted something, now it can be edited ruthlessly. Including keeping it intact as you edited it. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 03:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

::Yet you gleefully follow your master in her schemes, SPAZ. Of course, people like you - with rather limited intelligance - ALWAYS tend to blindly follow others, no matter if they're right or not. Your so willing to look the other way when your idol is doing something wrong, yet jump all over anyone who either calls them on it or mockingly immitates their actions.

::Therefore, at this time I would have to classify you as an adversary.

::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

:::...what the hell are you talking about? As for "limited intelligance" (sic -- ironic that you can't even spell 'intelligence' right, no?), I'd like to note that I was in gifted courses from kindergarten through high school. When I was tested back in 9th grade, my IQ was 120. I scored 1330 on the SATs. My GPA in high school was a 4.1 out of 4.0 (possible through advanced courses with extra "honors" credit available), and my GPA at UGA is a 3.4, and I made the Dean's List last fall. Who has limited intelligence, again? Don't talk down to me. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 00:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

:We are all agents of karma. I invite you to spell out your accusations and complaints, plain and clear in this space, so that we can confront them honestly and have done with this. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 14:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

First off Spaz, I too am laughing over that (I swear, unless I'm actually looking at the keyboard, from time to time my fingers seem to have a mind of their own - and WILL tend to deliberately hit the wrong keys :)) ) Does anyone happen to know of a good Exorcist??

Second, No matter who or what the article is about, there SHOULD be some sort of uniformity, and those who have a conflict with whoever/whatever the article is about should be discouraged from actively adding to it. As I have outlined before, that is pretty much the same as an officer conducting an investigation into a crime commited against them. Instead of being objective about it, the officer would be out for revenge - and where is the justice in that?

Though she may present herself as objective, and may even have the rest of you blinded to it, she DOES conitunally show signs that she IS in fact out to keep this conflict going. Allowing her to do so is a great disservice to wikifur. if you really want to see this place become the best that it can be, instead of jumping onher bandwagon you should at least try to make her see reason - and there IS a chance that she does not even realize herself what her true motivations are.

I WILL point out, first and formost, My own question "HE or SHE" - it was an honest question, as there was conflicting information and I wanted to know which was correct... not only for myself but for others who may come along and ALSO wonder. Ayuka's reaction was to claim I was "targeting" her for some unknown reason - which couldn't be further from the truth.

Oh, and Spaz? having a 4.1 grade average does not automatically make one smart.
:)) Just look at a storm chaser named '''Reed''' for proof of that. :)) He's almost lost his life at least twice because - in spite of his college education - he doesn't have the sense to realize when a tornado is coming right at him until it's nearly too late :O

I'll be back in a few hours - have to finish waking up. (Unless of course another idiot get's their sailboat stuck on a sandbar AGAIN.)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 12:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of intimidation, could we try to keep the [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Mozdoc&diff=0&oldid=197522 toughguy talk] to a minimum please? Using phrases like "it will be the biggest mistake of your life" are not going to help the situation any. Even if Ayukawataur is acting inappropriately, I'd like to ask that you not do the same. Thanks. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 17:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Douglas - Did not mean it to sound like I was trying to intimidate. I HAVE however dealt with people like her - they use any tactic, fair or foul, to get their way. I posted that so she knows that I'll fight back if she does, as I consider such to be extremely dishonest and do not stand for it.

Any suggestions on how I should reword it, to correct it so it's not mistaken?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== Image:4262568584.jpg ==

Hello AnthroSamurai ,

This is in regards to ''[[:Image:4262568584.jpg]]''. It has not been tagged with a copyright status. This can be a complicated area, so I can try to help if you need any. The Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:WP:IUP|Image use policy]] may give some background, but it isn't policy here.

To deal with this image, there are a few choices:

* If you are the copyright holder, release it under a free license, for example:
** [[Wikipedia:Public domain|Public domain]] <nowiki>{{PDImage}}</nowiki>
** [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons|Creative Commons]] Attribution-ShareAlike <nowiki>{{Cc-by-sa-2.5}}</nowiki>
** [[Wikipedia:GFDL|GFDL]] <nowiki>{{GFDL}}</nowiki>
* If you are asserting that this image is usable under fair use, add an appropriate fair use tag. A very basic summary is that fair use is used for commentary, criticism and review on the image when no free image could be used instead. Some fair use tags are:
** Logos: <nowiki>{{logo}}</nowiki>
** Covers: <nowiki>{{Cover}}</nowiki>
** Comic panels: <nowiki>{{Comic-panel}}</nowiki>
* If the image is already under a free license, provide information on the license, and tag the image if you can.
* If you would like the image to be deleted, ask any [[WikiFur:Administrators|administrator]]

To see a list of current copyright tags available on WikiFur, see [[:Category:Image copyright tags]]
If the copyright status is not resolved, the image may be deleted.

Unless you have a question for me specifically, I'd prefer responses on the page for the image. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 20:49, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

==Questions about Cubist==
I ask you, is there ANYTHING in my post that could be considered an attack on Cubist? And do you know of any reason why Cubist would choose to launch an attack upon me?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:The simplest conclusion is that he is being honest - that the reason for his assertion is he believes you to be a [[Wikipedia:Internet troll#Concern troll|concern troll]]. I don't see any reason to suggest that he is implying that you made an attack on him - just that he strongly disagrees with you and suspects your motives. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

QUOTE CUBIST: '''Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, the terrorists win!" Overblown histrionics much, V-boy?'''

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 18:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:Right. He believes that your statements are overblown histronics. The form of his expression might be considered an attack on you, but does not imply that he felt that you attacked ''him'', as you said. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, Cubist is claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, do you not think?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 18:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:No, that is not the meaning of the term. He appears to believe that you do not actually support the same goals as the wiki, but are trying to subvert them by pretending that you do. For example, if giving people fair treatment was one of the goals of the wiki you might express concerns that Mozdoc is not getting fair treatment, thereby hoping to elicit sympathy from those who would otherwise have a neutral or negative opinion. The trouble with making such assertions is that people's motives are unknown to us without some external form of confirmation, therefore they are hard to prove or disprove. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Mozdoc needs to learn to control his temper - I can sympathize with that. I also know how most of society can literally drive people like Mozdoc to such actions.

By only using punishment against him, we only further reinforce his behavior. That's not to say we should just give in and remove it to stop threats - just the opposite. HOWEVER, If it is removed, and you and the others make it CLEARLY known that
1 - it CAN be added in again should the threats resume.
2 - that it is being done for fairness sake.

I believe it will have a greater positive impact not only on the conflict but upon Mozdoc himself.

By the way, kindly take a look at my user page ;) :))
That should (hopefully) show we are two different peole - Mozdoc tends to simply open fire, wjile I tend to toy with those who make such pathetic attacks.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:52, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:As far as I know, the only person who has brought up the concept of you being the same person as Mozdoc is you. The assertions made by Cubist relate to the pursuit of similar goals, not similar identity.

:I am unsure how much any of us can help Mozdoc. I've talked to him on several occasions and made no long-term progress. The whole reason the page is here in the first place is that counseling hasn't worked to stop the harassment of others in the fandom. As I understand it, its purpose isn't to coerce the subject into good behaviour (because punishment doesn't work), but to ameliorate the effects of his bad behaviour on others. The question is whether or not the real name is a requirement for this. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 19:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

== IM and flames from this user ==

Between IMs like this:
:<tt>(12:47:41 PM) aysakiansamurai: As far as I am concerned, you, Ayuka, Spazkitty, Cubist, and all of wikifur in general can suck my dick, then fuck off and die. All you assholes are doing is using the shit to further anteagonize Mozdoc - and it's your own fault if he winds up going postal on your asses.</tt>
and [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User:Dmuth&diff=prev&oldid=203904 comments like this], it suggests to me that this user is more interested in stirring up trouble here than actually contributing.
I'm just sayin'. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 17:31, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

::Well, if you dickheads were'nt so hell bent on screwing with people then you wouldn't have so many people who hate you.

::If you want to fuck with people, you'd better expect people to fuck with you. ;)

::[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 20:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T20:20:41Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Vote tally (July 8rd, 2008) */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting tally (June 29th, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

::The statement that Mozdoc was 'on staff' at Further Confusion 2008 is incorrect. He was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff. I speak from my position of Executive Secretary for FC2008. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 16:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

:::''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

:::sez findra: "(Mozdoc) was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff." I had been under the impression that a convention's "staff" includes ''everybody'' who works 'behind the scenes' to make a convention happen, be they full-fledged ConCom members or volunteer gophers or what. Stupid (albeit honest) question: Why ''isn't'' a "volunteer" considered to be part of a convention's "staff"? Is this just a traditional term of art, or what? [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

::::A staff member at a convention is usually someone who is scheduled in advance, works in a specific department, and has a specific role laid out for them. Volunteers by comparison are just random folks who walk up and offer to help. They have no set commitment, and can put in as much or as little work as they like, and can work in different areas during the con. Volunteers who work a lot usually become staff members the following year. :-) At least, that's how the volunteer and staff system works at Anthrocon. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 13:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

== Vote tally (July 3rd, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -6 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist, KendricksRedtail)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

:'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

:It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

:'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

:Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

::Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I have to agree with [[User:SpazKitty|SpazKitty]] here. For all that Mozdoc claims to be the victim of the world's hatred, he is more often than not the instigator of that ill-will himself. He recently applied to have his ban overturned on SpinDizzy muck, claiming to be reformed. His tolerance lasted until the head wizard (which is Austin Dern, and not me - a fact Mozdoc seems to repeatedly ignore) refused instant reinstatement, and said it would have to be discussed among the wizards. This one temporary set-back provoked the same behaviour of insults, obscenities, and threats that has been his hallmark. Seriously, folks, it's not that he's misunderstood. The suggestion that removal of his name will somehow 'draw the conflict to an end' is something I could only euphemistically call 'optimistic'. --[[User:Findra|Findra]]

::::I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

::::Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

::::::Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

::::::You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

::::::'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

::::::And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::::'''CONCERN TROLL'''
:::::::"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

:::::::Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

:::::::Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

:::::::If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

:::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I think its a bit of an invasion of privacy to have Mozodc's real name on here for everyone to see. [[User:Hellkat9940|Hellkat9940]] 05:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Stating the obvious (what most here seem to have missed) ==

It seems that in regards to the removal of Mozdoc's real name, most of the people here are missing what should be very obvious - the fact that the removal of his real name would not be a permanent, "for all time" event.

Just because it is removed, does NOT mean that it could never be added again should he become overly aggressive once more. ALSO, if he DOES straighen out, such information could be further added to his artcile showing that fact. The opposite can also be true.

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have before us a golden opportunity to guide this individual into a better life. Shall we use it, or throw it away?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:On second thought, why bother. Nobody really cares anyway - if they did, a lot of what is going wrong in this day and age would not be happening.

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Can we get this over with please? ==

Or is the date going to just keep getting pushed back until theres enough to support an unfavorable result because its July 7th today and thats when the final decision was supposed to take place. [[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 14:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:The decision closes on July 7th. Personally, I would have chosen the end of it for all time zones, but Siege is welcome to close the discussion at any time that they feel appropriate.

:If you have to rely on timing to ensure that you have a favourable response to the proposal, it rather brings into question your confidence of public support for the proposal. (I'm not too happy that we had to have a vote on this in the first place, rather than reaching a consensus on the best - any case where a significant proportion of the population feels we're doing the wrong thing is unfortunate.) --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 14:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

::It doesn't matter. As of this morning July seventh there was a one or two vote advantage allowing for the removal of my name from this damn article. No one added themselves to the persons against it, and no one decided to get off the fence and go for one side or the other. As far as I see it, this is fucking over. I'm getting my name off the article before this drags out another week because some moronic dumbass out there decides to bring up another excuse to drag it out even longer. I don't see why you can't all just agree to allow me to get the exclusion I ASKED for and get my name off of WikiFur ENTIRELY AS I WANT.
::--Mozdoc

:::sez Mozdoc: "As of this morning July seventh there was a one or two vote advantage allowing for the removal of my name from this damn article." No, there was not any such "advantage" -- not unless you know of any votes that were cast since the tally of 3 July 2008. Sure, the person signing themself as "Hellkat9940" offered their opinion on 7 July, but "Hellkat" did not go so far as to say "I vote to remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page". This leaves anybody but "Hellkat" unable to determine whether "Hellkat"'s position is "It's wrong, and I think it should be corrected," or "It's wrong, but I don't really care if it's corrected." As for the person who signed themself as "So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))", that's just AnthroSamurai under another pseudonym, and ''his'' (?) vote is already counted in the 3 July tally. So where's that "one or two vote advantage", Mozdoc? [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

::::'''Gee, it looks like you people are grasping for ANY EXCUSE to leave his name up on the article. Anyone with half a brain can see WHY Mozdoc is so pissed off at all of you - you're going out of your way to fuck with him.'''

::::'''You people are coming DANGEROURSLY CLOSE to making yet another deadly enemy - is that what you want?'''
::::'''And YOU Cubist, you better quit it with the childish shit before you get your ass paddled.'''

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 14:45, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

== Vote tally (July 8rd, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthroSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -6 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist, KendricksRedtail)

Deadlock. As some other users as suggested, we should put this already to rest (the proper way.) Contacting other registered (valid) users/Sysops by staff could be a solution, but (imho) this matter should be settled today [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 16:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

: '''Why bother??? You KNOW that certain people will just dominate the situation and his name won't be removed either way. People are just using this as another means of messing with the guy to set him off.'''

: '''Correct me if I'm wrong, but even YOU have gone ahead and skewed the voting by selectively removing votes.'''

: [[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 16:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

:: please enhance your calm anthrosamurai, lest ye be seen as no more than a troll who looses poorly. such would be bad for your cause.
:: i have remained quiet for a while now, however, i would like to say something now. yes, this should be closed. it has been going on for too long and some of the less mature among the ranks have started to show that immaturity. it will only devolve. however, at the same time, anything other than a verdict in their opinion favor will also be met with the same level of maturity. opinion, not fact, of which i hope i am wrong.
:: i would like to propose two things.
:: 1 - any future votes be restricted to established users. either side can easily find straw votes if we do not use that restriction.
:: 2 - preferably, we allow the admins themselves to make the decision, and no matter what it is, we agree to abide by it without complaint. their site, their decision. which is where it should have remained to begin with.
:: side note- i have edited anthrosamurai post above to provide proper indent format.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Here is what is going to happen.'''

Mozdoc's name will be removed for a period of one month.
If he starts further trouble, it will be re-added PERMANTLY, with no further consideration for it's removal.
What ELSE will happen... well, none of you really want to know.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 19:58, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

: Uh... I don't think that's your decision to make.
: And, I'm going to ask you again: knock it off with the [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:AnthroSamurai&curid=40158&diff=203979&oldid=203919&rcid=212413 name calling] and [[Wikipedia:Incivility|general incivility]]. It is not helping things any. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 20:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Doug?

'''F--- YOU'''

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 20:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Dmuth

2008-07-08T20:13:09Z

AnthroSamurai: /* IM contact */

<div style="padding: 1em; border: solid 2px black; background-color: lightblue;">
::'''[http://furry.wikicities.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Dmuth&action=edit&section=new Please click here to leave me a new message.]'''

'''Note:''' If you need to contact me in real time (ongoing vandalism, etc.), the best way is via the IM usernames listed on [http://www.claws-and-paws.com/personal/contact/ this page]. Also, I can be found on [[FurryMUCK]] as "Giza".

</div>

----

== Archives of past talk ==
* [[User Talk: Dmuth/Archive1]]
* [[User Talk: Dmuth/Archive2]]

== page name correction ==

Hey Dmuth, RVDDP2501 here, listen I made a mistake of mislabeling a page I made, how do i fix it? - http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Hyesta - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 00:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

:You tell us, and we move it. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 00:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

: Just to add to GreenReaper's comment, pages can be "moved", but only administrators have that privilege due to past abuses. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 00:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

: ah, I see, I understand, alright, thanks - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 00:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

== rv harassment ==

Hi Giza,

Thanks for reverting [[User:Higgs Raccoon]]. I'd have done it myself, but I've been sitting here scratching my head wondering who Sveemon is and why he would think I was trolling. <shrugs> Oh well...
--[[User:Higgs Raccoon|Higgs Raccoon]] 14:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

:No problem. I haven't a clue what his malfunction is either. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 16:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==

Hey Dmuth, it looks like wikifur is getting vandalized, is there anything I can do? - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 14:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

WE ARE UNDER ATTACK!!! - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 21:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

== Reverting vandalism ==

Hi, I was wondering what the best method to help out with reverting vandalism is. I found [http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/2485 this] for Firefox and Greasemonkey, which should help, but I notice you are able to roll back quite a lot of articles very quickly. Is that due to your admin status or is there something that could streamline the process for a regular user like me? [[User:Simba B|Simba B]] 22:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

:Yes, us admins have a few extra "powers", such as being able to roll back edits through the wiki. :-) Thanks for the script though, I'll pass that around. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 22:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

::Actually that script doesn't quite work as advertised. [http://www.oakcourt.dyndns.org/~andrew/mediawikirollbackpagehis_fixed.user.js Here's] a fixed (and tested) version that includes *.wikia.com addresses. [[User:Simba B|Simba B]] 22:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

== polishing up contributions ==

Been referring to the help page on wikifur for some of my basic editing, yet can't quite get that higher standard. Is there a step by step tutorial that would piece it together? No biggie, just want to make my stuff easy to read.

- cowboys of moo mesa
- macskafogo
- dogthanian

:[[Help:Furry Book of Style]] is one starting point, assuming you haven't been there already. Other than that, a good way to get the "feel" for pages would be to click the edit tab on some existing ones and see how things are done. If you watch [[Special:Recentchanges]], you can also click the link labeled "diff" next to some of the cleanups that are done to see what exactly was changed, which may be helpful. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 20:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

== Any subjects not covered yet? ==

Giza, do you know of anything not covered in wikifur yet, or a choir list of subjects that need work? Point me in the right direction please. Happy Halloween. {{unsigned|Broken conspiracy}}

:Actually, if you check out [[Special:Wantedpages]], that will give you a list of articles which have links to them, but haven't been created yet. That's a great starting point of things that need writing.
:Also, there are ''plenty'' of articles that need some form of cleanup or copyediting done on them. Feel free to browse around [[:Category:Cleanup]] and fix up articles that need help. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 00:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

== 65.93.15.75 ==

What to do about this person's edits to [[Convention]]? [[User:Simba B|Simba B]] 18:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

:I'm not sure yet. I'm kinda hoping that they say something more substantial than, "you people are stealing bandwidth". Personally, I'm all for trying to find some sort of comprimise. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 18:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

== Duplicated Image ==

Curse my Mediawiki skills ;-P...I created a duplicate image [[:Image:Pawstop2.png|here]]. If you could use your <s>deity</s> admin powers to fix my boo-boo, It'd be greatly appreciated. [[User:Simba B|Simba B]] 00:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

:Sure. Done! --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 00:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

==Archive problem==

Hey Dmuth, I just created an archive page in my Usertalks page for October but something is wrong, everytime I click on it it wants to be editied instead of viewed, I can't figure out what I'm ding wrong? - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 16:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

== Thanks! ==

I was hoping someone would come and clean up Jirris's page :) I tried but I had no idea what i was doing.

lol Thanks :)!!
K {{unsigned|Damaged Girl}}

: No problem. I'm happy to help. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 03:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

== numbers vandalism ==

You just blocked a user for that...what's the point of it?? e.g. why would you put random number in an article like that? it seems a strange thing to do (not that vandalizing a wiki isn't)...I actually saw that edit and figured it was some wiki markup I didn't know about. [[User:Simba B|Simba B]] 18:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

:Because it's an ongoing problem that has been reported over on [http://www.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikia-l wikia-l] over the last few months, affecting all wikis. While that IP only vandalized one page, there have been cases where one IP vandalized dozens of pages, so I wanted to err on the side of caution. (Since the vandalize type was part of a larger vandalism problem, we can assume that the individual was NOT acting in good faith.

: You can read more about the problem at [[Wikia:Forum:String_of_numbers_type_vandalism]]. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 19:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
:: **reads the linked page** Hmmm...some kind of bot looks like. Interesting. Never heard of this before. [[User:Simba B|Simba B]] 20:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

== Image:DSC02082.JPG ==

Hello Dmuth,

This is in regards to ''[[:Image:DSC02082.JPG]]''. It has not been tagged with a copyright status. This can be a complicated area, so I can try to help if you need any. The Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:WP:IUP|Image use policy]] may give some background, but it isn't policy here.

To deal with this image, there are a few choices:

* If you are the copyright holder, release it under a free license, for example:
** [[Wikipedia:Public domain|Public domain]] <nowiki>{{PDImage}}</nowiki>
** [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons|Creative Commons]] Attribution-ShareAlike <nowiki>{{Cc-by-sa-2.5}}</nowiki>
** [[Wikipedia:GFDL|GFDL]] <nowiki>{{GFDL}}</nowiki>
* If you are asserting that this image is usable under fair use, add an appropriate fair use tag. A very basic summary is that fair use is used for commentary, criticism and review on the image when no free image could be used instead. Some fair use tags are:
** Logos: <nowiki>{{logo}}</nowiki>
** Covers: <nowiki>{{Cover}}</nowiki>
** Comic panels: <nowiki>{{Comic-panel}}</nowiki>
* If the image is already under a free license, provide information on the license, and tag the image if you can.
* If you would like the image to be deleted, ask any [[WikiFur:Administrators|administrator]]

To see a list of current copyright tags available on WikiFur, see [[:Category:Image copyright tags]]
If the copyright status is not resolved, the image may be deleted.

Unless you have a question for me specifically, I'd prefer responses on the page for the image. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 04:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

:Done! --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 18:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

== Image:Magic Tom.jpg ==

Hello Dmuth,

This is in regards to ''[[:Image:Magic Tom.jpg]]''. It has not been tagged with a copyright status. This can be a complicated area, so I can try to help if you need any. The Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:WP:IUP|Image use policy]] may give some background, but it isn't policy here.

To deal with this image, there are a few choices:

* If you are the copyright holder, release it under a free license, for example:
** [[Wikipedia:Public domain|Public domain]] <nowiki>{{PDImage}}</nowiki>
** [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons|Creative Commons]] Attribution-ShareAlike <nowiki>{{Cc-by-sa-2.5}}</nowiki>
** [[Wikipedia:GFDL|GFDL]] <nowiki>{{GFDL}}</nowiki>
* If you are asserting that this image is usable under fair use, add an appropriate fair use tag. A very basic summary is that fair use is used for commentary, criticism and review on the image when no free image could be used instead. Some fair use tags are:
** Logos: <nowiki>{{logo}}</nowiki>
** Covers: <nowiki>{{Cover}}</nowiki>
** Comic panels: <nowiki>{{Comic-panel}}</nowiki>
* If the image is already under a free license, provide information on the license, and tag the image if you can.
* If you would like the image to be deleted, ask any [[WikiFur:Administrators|administrator]]

To see a list of current copyright tags available on WikiFur, see [[:Category:Image copyright tags]]
If the copyright status is not resolved, the image may be deleted.

Unless you have a question for me specifically, I'd prefer responses on the page for the image.
--[[User:Rat|Rat]] 06:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

:Fixed.
:And um, it's not necessary to send me the same form letter twice in a row... A simple, "can you set copyright status on this image?" would suffice. :-) --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 14:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
::Ok. Not intended to bother you. Just easier to use the form letter than come up with a custom message each time.
::Also, the GFDL requires giving attribution to the creator. If you are the creator(which I gather is the case here), then you should specify that so others can give you the attribution. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 15:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

::: Noted and done. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 17:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

== userpage vandalism ==

Thanks for the assist there! [[User:Simba B|Simba B]] 17:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

: No problem. This seems to be [[WikiFur:Tiscali.co.uk vandal|a certain vandal]] who has caused us problems before. Looks like another complaint to his ISP might be in order. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 17:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

== Thanks ==

Thanks for the help on [[swifthorn]]. I am defiantly new to the whole wiki thing. What else do I need to do? {{unsigned|Kitsubaka}}

: Looking at the article right now, the main concern is if it is a Primary Source or not. That is, is the information listed there available elsewhere on the web? In keeping with the encyclopedic nature of the Wiki, we generally ask that all articles summarize information that exists elsewhere (kinda like a real life encyclopedia) and that WikiFur not be used to publish original content.
: That being said, we're not asking for a full blown website to be created or anything like that. A simple blog entry on [[LiveJournal]] or whereever that contains what is in the article thus far would be sufficient. (and we can cite it in the article)
: If you have any questions, please let me know, thanks! --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 22:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

: Of course! Here is a [http://kitsu-baka.deviantart.com/journal/6052299/ journal entry]. Thank you. =]--[[User:Kitsubaka|Kitsu]] 22:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

:: Works for me! Thanks. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 23:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
:Your welcome, and thank you for guiding me along. X3--[[User:Kitsubaka|Kitsu]] 00:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

== Image:More Fursuit Parade.jpg ==

[[:Image:More Fursuit Parade.jpg]] needs a copyright tag. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 03:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

: Done. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 03:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

== Here's the reason for the accusation . . . ==

In [[WikiFur:IRC]] last night: "[23:30] <Dongbee> I wanna kill one million jews." (their page on it is surprisingly free of [[Wikipedia:Nazi concentration camp badges|badges]]). [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 00:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== Block of 71.98.64.0/18 ==

Are you sure about blocking that entire subnet? We've only had two vandlism incidents from there over the last 24 hours. I'm concerned that we might exclude potential contributors from that block. May I propose that we unblock that block and reblock only if we keep having incidents of vandalism from there? --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 21:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:If you wish. It's only 16384 addresses, though - I doubt we have contributors and trolls in that same block. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 22:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

== EarthLion revert ==

Why did you revert the edits on the [[EarthLion]] article? Doesn't look like vandalism to me. If it's something like the person not wanting that information out there, perhaps this should be documented on the [[Talk:EarthLion|talk page]]? [[User:Simba B|Simba B]] 20:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

:It looked to me like a personal attack. Granted, the wording was a little odd. Did I perhaps read it wrong or misunderstand something? --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 20:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

::I'd read that again if I were you. It's awful subtle for a personal attack. OTOH, it does seem that naming this person's enemies is not what we want. Here's what I'll do: I've got some things to take care of here, but when I get back I will restore the edit minus the enemies part. [[User:Simba B|Simba B]] 21:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

::: Yes, the naming of names was somewhat troubling to me, but yeah, maybe it wasn't a personal attack.
::: Your suggestion of restoring the edit without the enemies part sounds good to me! --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 21:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

== Happy christmahannakwanza! ==

Good to see someone (else) is keeping an eye on things, even today. Have a good Christmas! [[User:Simba B|Simba B]] 17:19, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

:And have a Happy Nude Deer! --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 19:09, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

== Duke Otterland IP ==

Should you maybe delete the revision by the IP and put his name where the IP was and not have that IP page? It's sort of a privacy thing I would think after all the stuff that's happened to him. [[User:Tretonin|Tretonin]] 16:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

: Even if I were to modify the talk page, it would not remove that IP from the history of edits to that page, so I think the protection would be minimal. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 16:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

:: You change, delete and resore all but the revision. Duke's been trolled a lot. I think his IPs made public are bad, unless that wasn't him. Wikipedia admins do it, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=SlimVirgin&page=] and see where it says restored ##. [[User:Tretonin|Tretonin]] 17:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

== No search hits for user 71.126.19.87's entries ==

None of the 27 engines (even the obscure or foreign ones,) gives one hit on any of these articles. Just FYI [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 18:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

== RVDDP2501 character name change request ==

Hey Dmuth, listen, I'm really sorry to bug you about this but I couldn't send this message to GreenReaper, something about a spamblocker so I thought I'd send it to you to perhaps relay the message to Greenreaper unless you can do it for me. I was wondering if I could have the page name of the character "Msaka" changed to "Ashen Msaka", I woulkd really appreciate it, thanks - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 15:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

:Sure thing! Done. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks alot :-) how are things going btw? - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 17:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey Dmuth, sorry again but I have yet another page name request, could you change the page name of the Extinctioners character "Satoru" to "Satoru Aka" please, I would really appreciate it, thank you - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 14:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

:Sure thing. It's done. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 00:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

::thank you - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 00:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey Dmuth, how's it going man, things good? listen, I was wondering if I could ask you of yet another page name change request? I'm wondering if you could change the extinctioner's character "Krystin" to "Krystin Lobo" please? Thank you :) - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 03:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
:Done!----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 14:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks alot man :) - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 14:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

== Extinctioners page editior ==

Hey Dmuth, listen someone named [[User:Hyenafur]] is adding and uploading pages and unlicenced pics to the extinctioners page, what should I do since these pages involve fan characters and pages with very little info? - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 01:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

: I see that GreenReaper beat me to it. Oh well. Feel free to let me know if anything other issues come up.. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 03:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

::forgive my bothering you with this question but would you have any idea when the Extinctioners main page will be unlocked? - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 23:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

::: Has the debate been resolved? We only locked because there was a bit of a revert war going on. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 00:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::::As far as I can tell it has. Shawn was gracious enough to post a notice on the Extinctioners talk page regarding his standpoint on the issue. While there is no way to tell if its legit, his word would be the final authority on the issue. Karl is currently lurking in the shadows, whining about us in his [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Karl_Kratt&oldid=112423 own WikiFur article] and [http://cadetkratt.deviantart.com/ his deviantART page]. Well, not whining. More as if his feelings are hurt because he feels all his hard work was for naught.
What hasn't been decided on yet is a solution to how to treat fanfiction work for Extinctioners and other various titles.--[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]] 00:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok... hmmm... I honestly don't know what more I can do or say in terms of this matter. If a decision is acheived in terms of how fan fiction is treated and/or when the Extinctioners main page is re-opened, please let me know, thank you - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 01:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

: Okay, I just unprotected the article. We'll see how that works out. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 05:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

::Thank you, I will keep an eye on it and if anything similar to before takes place, I will keep you informed, once again, Thank you :-) - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 10:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

== This morning's vandalism ==

Holy crap. Thanks for being on the ball with the vandals that came by this morning! --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 14:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Stick around! I'm not sure they've gone yet... -- [[User:Higgs Raccoon|Higgs Raccoon]] 14:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Good God almighty, what in the hell is with this vandal, does he think he's Michael Richards (Cosmo Kramer)?! - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 16:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

== page name question ==

Hey Dmuth, RVDDP2501 here, listen, I just want to get your opinion on something, I created a page for an Extinctioners character named [[Stalker]], my question is that since this characters name is very broad, in your opinion, should the name be either changed to Ethan Stalworth (character's real name) or possibly have the word "(Extinctioners)" placed at the end, let me know what you think, thank you - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 19:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

:Since at this time, we have no name conflict, I don't see a real need for a disambiguation page. If one ever happens, we can just move the current one to "Stalker (Extinctioneers)" at that time. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 23:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

::Ok, thanks - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 23:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

== New User Templates ==

Hey. I saw the mass number of user templates and was wondering if you could add some more. :)

Elfwood: http://www.elfwood.com

YNA: http://yna.solfire.com/

Artvark: http://artvark.us/forum/galleryindex.php?sid=6cf0616d3f51a301f7397724769ba87c

Those are the ones I can think of. :)

== Board of Directors vs. convention committee ==

It is my understanding that the [[Board of Directors]] is ''not'' equivalent to the [[convention committee]]. The Board directs the organization over multiple years, and is legally separate from its day-to-day operation. The convention committee is convened by the [[convention chairman]], who is chosen by the board, in a similar manner to the way in which for-profit corporation boards choose a CEO who subsequently hires staff. The chairman directs the convention and organizes the committee, and is ultimately responsible to the board for his actions and those of his staff. Often the only power the board has over the convention is to deny a complete budget or to replace the chairman, except in extraordinary circumstances (the board has [[Wikipedia:fiduciary|fiduciary responsibility]], so they have to [http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Talk:Furry_fans_flock_to_Further_Confusion_2007#AAE_board_meeting_notes step in if something goes wrong]).

The Board will often include several [[greymuzzle]] members who are not actively involved in running the convention, but are viewed as "sound minds." Now, it may be that [[Anthrocon|''some'' conventions]] regularly have [http://www.anthrocon.org/about board members] who are also active members of the convention committee - more [[Wikipedia:Board of directors#Classification|"executive directors."]] However, that is not necessarily the case. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 21:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

: Not only is this not the case in Anthrocon (as you mention), but in Anthrocon there is ''no'' "Convention Committee". It is the Board members themselves who are responsible for the day to day operations of the convention.
:(As an aside, our rationale behind this is that it eliminates a lot of politics. I've seen other non-furry conventions run into issues where people on the ConCom end up doing lots of work, only to perceive themselves as being "bossed around" by Board members who aren't doing much of anything. Obviously, that kinda sucks when you're putting in lots of effort, only to have someone else step in and tell you how to do things. Under our system, if you want to be on the Board, you have to do the work. )
:Anyway, perhaps we should expand the Convention Committee article to explain the different leadership types found in different cons. I'm not sure how to approach this though. Your thoughts? --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 21:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

::Hmm, interesting! I think probably the best thing to do is to have one article that discusses the different models of [[convention organization]] or [[convention management]]. Alternatively, we could just put it all back into [[convention]], under a "Management" heading. Having separate articles about every little detail just makes it harder to see the whole picture.

::: I'm all for putting this into [[convention]]. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 21:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

::I also noticed that there is no copy of Anthrocon, Inc.'s bye-laws on the [http://www.anthrocon.org/about about page]. Would it be possible to add that at some point? It seems like it would complement the information already there. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 21:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

::: I think we use stock by-laws, but I'll check with [[UncleKage|Sam]]. We don't have too much "offical" structure, anyway. Our yearly Board Meeting, as required by law, takes about 10 minutes and is held on the Monday following Anthrocon in or around Con Ops.
::: Don't get me startedon what I think of mandatory "weekly meetings" and the like. :-P --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 21:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

== Another Extinctioners name change request from RVDDP2501 ==

Hey Dmuth, how's it going, listen, I was wondering if you could change the page name of the Extinctioners character, "Radica" to "Radica Procyon", thank you - [[User:RVDDP2501|RVDDP2501]] 01:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

:Done. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 01:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

== Thanks for working on the Magfest page ==

Thank you for working on the magfest page on wikipedia.

A friend of mine is an organiser for the event, and I noticed there was not a wikipedia page for it.

Cheers.

Robert Headley {{unsigned|71.114.165.111}}

:No problem, happy to help! --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 21:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

== AnimalCon ==

Hi Giza, can you please restore my article? I found your dismissal of my furmeet as "an attempt to sell videos" rather insulting. I've provided the website FOR the meet (which was dismised) as well as the Long Island Furs website, which had "Animal Con" indexed as a meet earlier this month. The site is maintained by Dr. Sergey "Cubbi" Zubakov.

Maybe you would have been better flagigng it for revision or dividing it into two parts; the "metafiction" aspect of the con as referred to in the films versus the "real life" counterpart as the actual meet, which Umgotts Studios sponsored and filmed at.

Thank you. {{unsigned|Sgatsby}}

: First, I didn't delete your article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]] did.
: Second, uou forgot to mention the part wherein you created that very same article some months before, and it too was deleted.
: It seems to me that you are attempting to "alter the data to support your conclusion", so to speak.
: If you want to make stuff up to advertise your videos, I couldn't care less. What we here do care about is you trying to use this Wiki as an advertising vehicle for your videos. That sort of behavior is unacceptable, and it will not be tolerated. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 13:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

== Locking ==

I would like my [[RealDesertFox]] article locked, please. [[User:RDF|RealDesertFox]] 21:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:Sure. I just posted a note on the article's discussion page, asking if anyone has any objections. (Such objections rarely happen) If I don't hear anything back, I'll apply the "excluded" tag and protect the article in a few days. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 01:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::Okay, this has been done! --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 17:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

== Invitation: ==

To join my too-slowly-growing group, BowlingFurs. see http://community.livejournal.com/bowling_furs , and once I've got the extra time on my hands again I'll be re-lurking in our IRC channel on irc.furnet.org, too. Plus, if you have other bowling furs you know, tell them about it! :D

== Stacey ==

Hi. I was just looking at some edits you made to [[Stacey]] back in December and was wondering why you rephrased it in a way that focuses on her impersonation of one particular artist (Adele Sessler) when in actuality she has done this sort of thing to dozens of artists. I'd like to rework the statement in question accordingly but wanted to get your take on it first. --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 19:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

:Looking through the edits I made, it looks like the previous version said that she had done this to "hundreds" of artists, a statement which seemed a little over the top (and possibly unsourced) at the time. If you have more stuff to cite (or maybe I just didn't look at the external references close enough), feel free to update the article. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 20:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

::I'm probably the one who wrote that, based largely upon the information from the "Life and Crimes of" site in the external links. My editorial sense of what to say and how to say it in an encyclopedic article has improved since then. I have pretty reliable information that Stacey has created about two dozen fake accounts on Fur Affinity, some of them under the names of well-known furry artists. "Hundreds" may be hard to validate, but I'd be pretty comfortable saying she has impersonated "dozens" or "numerous" artists and writers. --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 21:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

:::If the info is on the web somewhere (i.e. we can cite it), that's good enough for me! --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 23:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

== Feels Like Old Times ==

Heya. First off, thanks for sticking up for me in my absence.

For old time's sake, I read [http://home.kendra.com/mauser/GAFIATE.html Rich Chandler's ham-handed attempt at character defamation] again tonight—specifically the part where he portrays me as favoring "anything goes" policies, and how ''great'' he thinks it is that conventions now control exploitive media crews.

I betcha Rich would shit a purple kitten if he realized [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.furry/msg/2c10db98484cc2e4?dmode=source I suggested a Media Liaison for furry conventions in 1997.] And who could've predicted ten years later I'd be helping escort them around myself? -=)

See ya in the funny papers,

—[[User:Xydexx|Xydexx]] 06:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

:I want to see a purple kitten. :-( --[[User:KendricksRedtail|Kendricks Redtail]]

== Images uploaded that should have copyright tags ==

There are some images uploaded by you that should have copyright tags or other attention. I've created a list at [[User:Rat/ImagesNeedLicensesDM]]. Thanks for your attention. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 20:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

:I have fixed the images in question. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 01:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

== deletions ==

FIRST you delete my Monty Python lines, THEN you delete the image I put as a joke on my user page....

DARNIT, you never let me have ANY fun. :))

[[User:AnthroSamurai|AnthroSamurai]] 14:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

:But I didn't, [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Mozdoc&curid=27861&diff=195385&oldid=195382 Higgs Raccoon did].
:The reason why I removed the template was because while I did find it funny, it also caused your user page to show up in [[:Category:Protected pages]], which might cause some confusion.
:Now, if you'd to include an '''image''' that looks like the protected template (like [http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l93/dougmuth/?action=view&current=protected.jpg this one], or just copy and paste in the template code, I say go for it! Neither of those would cause any issues, and be rather amusing. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 14:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Hop on YIM - I have a bit of an OT problem that's driving me nuts.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|AnthroSamurai]] 14:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

== How about THIS one. :P ==

I know you didn't like the other image I put up...

How does it look now?

[[User:AnthroSamurai]]

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 15:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

== Is there any proof? ==

I happened to notice a rather odd and unsourced statement on the "Mozdoc" article - "attempting to take covert photographs of Kacey's print display books" - and would like to see something submitted as proof of this.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 11:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

:I've no idea. If it's an unsourced statement, then we should probably remove it from the article and make a note on the talk page. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== IM contact ==

What the fuck is wrong with you? I'm trying to contact you on IM but all you fucking do is disappear.

--Mozdoc

If you haven't figured it out yet Mozdoc, it's all a game - they're just out to fuck with you.

And Dougie? Get ready to join the '''KISS MY ASS''' club. ;)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]]

User talk:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-08T20:11:03Z

AnthroSamurai: /* IM and flames from this user */

Welcome to [[WikiFur]]! Thank you for registering an account - we look forward to working with you. [[Forum:Help desk|Let us know]] if you need any [[Help:Contents|help]] not already provided. If you would like help creating an article or just editing it, don't hesitate to consult the [[Help:Furry Book of Style|Furry Book of Style]] or just contact an [[WikiFur:Administrator|administrator]]. Have a nice day! :-)--[[User:Rat|Rat]] 10:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

== deletions ==

FIRST you delete my Monty Python lines, THEN you delete the image I put as a joke on my user page....

DARNIT, you never let me have ANY fun. :))

[[User:AnthroSamurai|AnthroSamurai]] 14:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

:But I didn't, [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Mozdoc&curid=27861&diff=195385&oldid=195382 Higgs Raccoon did].
:The reason why I removed the template was because while I did find it funny, it also caused your user page to show up in [[:Category:Protected pages]], which might cause some confusion.
:Now, if you'd to include an '''image''' that looks like the protected template (like [http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l93/dougmuth/?action=view&current=protected.jpg this one], or just copy and paste in the template code, I say go for it! Neither of those would cause any issues, and be rather amusing. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 14:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

== Removed "short story" tag ==

Mwalimu, I removed the tag you put on "Tales from the Reservation" because it's definately NOT a short story - The site does not have the entire story transcribed yet. Shoot, there's 3 parts of the story, and part-I is still being transcribed (got 6 pages left to go).

LUCKILY, part-II is only 5 pages, while part-III is 9 pages - because if each part was 17 pages (like part-I is), by the time I got halfway through part-II I would be in a padded cell with my fingers all bandaged up :))

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 20:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

:That's fine, if you wish to reassign it to a more appropriate category. Note, however, that [[:Category:Stories]] is essentially an obsolete and unused category. Perhaps a more appropriate category to assign it to would be [[:Category:Story series]]. --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 20:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I take it there's no category for Science Fiction???
[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

:At present we do not have categories by genre for works of literature (or for any other types of work unless you count Mature as a separate genre). Although [[:Category:Stories]] is unused, the text there is a guide of sorts for what category a story should be categorized in. --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 05:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

== Removal of contributions ==

You know, the end result of you removing your contributions is the loss of quality and content on this wiki - and someone will likely revert to the more desirable versions of those pages you "un-edit". As noted beneath every edit box, contributions are made under the GFDL, which essentially means that your alterations are considered open for the public good. Much as bad edits can be made good (see [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=FurNation_Worlds&action=history the history page for FurNation Worlds], specifically May 23 and 24 as an example of what happens to changes made in anger), so good edits can be retained through the diligence of any contributing party. I only have a special interest in diffs because I see those red !'s next to them, but I do have an interest in preserving good information. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I never signed any waiver or release stating that I lose rights to what I post. If I choose to remove it, that should be my privledge. If this site was not so willing to overlook one of it's users pushing a vendetta (and using absolutely childs ways of doing it) I would not mind contributing. However, I refuse to promote, contribute, or otherwise assist such a site that does condone such.

NOW, if you wish to keep re-adding the information, I can sit here all day reverting it. If you wish to ban me for that, I can simply create a page else detailing exactly what is happening here and why I have removed my contributions. Then this site will quickly gain the same sullied reputation as it's parent - wikipedia.

The choice is yours.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 16:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Contributions are not yours. If you spit in someone's coffee, you can't take it back out, can you? --<big>''' [[User:Brushwell Clinton|Brushwell]] '''</big>[[User_Talk:Brushwell Clinton|T a l k]] 17:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

:Quote: ''I never signed any waiver or release . . .'' Answer: You don't lose your rights - we gain some! It's only an official policy, noted on every edit page (stuck beneath the text box and above the subject field), and included in the user agreement when you create an account:
:''Please note that all contributions to WikiFur are considered to be released under the GFDL (see [[:WikiFur:Copyrights]] for details). If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly '''and redistributed at will''', then don't submit it here.'' (emphasis mine - I refer you again to [[:WikiFur:Copyrights]], which specifically covers this behavior)

:I am not party to your complaint, and have no wish to be party to an edit war. I'm trying to be neutral here. However, I see this as childish behavior, destructive to the wiki and to yourself. I, personally, will not ban you today, but I ''am'' going to seek consensus with other Administrators on your behavior if it continues; and you may yet receive that ban. I would especially note that [[User talk:Brushwell Clinton#Don't push it lad|your recent comment to fellow editor Brushwell Clinton]] can be considered a threat, and if you want even a hint of support from me, you might want to apologize to him and/or remove it.
: -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:22, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you SIEGE for showing that there ARE in fact double standards on wikifur.

Your directives are noted.... In this instance however, they are rejected. Should you be foolish enough to apply policy to me, while once again ignoring it in one of your own, then you will not only further prove that double standard, but can expect neither respect nor compliance.

Karma's a bitch.... And I act as her agent ;)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 19:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

:Oh please. You're not above the law. None of us are. Stop acting like you are. You submitted something, now it can be edited ruthlessly. Including keeping it intact as you edited it. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 03:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

::Yet you gleefully follow your master in her schemes, SPAZ. Of course, people like you - with rather limited intelligance - ALWAYS tend to blindly follow others, no matter if they're right or not. Your so willing to look the other way when your idol is doing something wrong, yet jump all over anyone who either calls them on it or mockingly immitates their actions.

::Therefore, at this time I would have to classify you as an adversary.

::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

:::...what the hell are you talking about? As for "limited intelligance" (sic -- ironic that you can't even spell 'intelligence' right, no?), I'd like to note that I was in gifted courses from kindergarten through high school. When I was tested back in 9th grade, my IQ was 120. I scored 1330 on the SATs. My GPA in high school was a 4.1 out of 4.0 (possible through advanced courses with extra "honors" credit available), and my GPA at UGA is a 3.4, and I made the Dean's List last fall. Who has limited intelligence, again? Don't talk down to me. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 00:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

:We are all agents of karma. I invite you to spell out your accusations and complaints, plain and clear in this space, so that we can confront them honestly and have done with this. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 14:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

First off Spaz, I too am laughing over that (I swear, unless I'm actually looking at the keyboard, from time to time my fingers seem to have a mind of their own - and WILL tend to deliberately hit the wrong keys :)) ) Does anyone happen to know of a good Exorcist??

Second, No matter who or what the article is about, there SHOULD be some sort of uniformity, and those who have a conflict with whoever/whatever the article is about should be discouraged from actively adding to it. As I have outlined before, that is pretty much the same as an officer conducting an investigation into a crime commited against them. Instead of being objective about it, the officer would be out for revenge - and where is the justice in that?

Though she may present herself as objective, and may even have the rest of you blinded to it, she DOES conitunally show signs that she IS in fact out to keep this conflict going. Allowing her to do so is a great disservice to wikifur. if you really want to see this place become the best that it can be, instead of jumping onher bandwagon you should at least try to make her see reason - and there IS a chance that she does not even realize herself what her true motivations are.

I WILL point out, first and formost, My own question "HE or SHE" - it was an honest question, as there was conflicting information and I wanted to know which was correct... not only for myself but for others who may come along and ALSO wonder. Ayuka's reaction was to claim I was "targeting" her for some unknown reason - which couldn't be further from the truth.

Oh, and Spaz? having a 4.1 grade average does not automatically make one smart.
:)) Just look at a storm chaser named '''Reed''' for proof of that. :)) He's almost lost his life at least twice because - in spite of his college education - he doesn't have the sense to realize when a tornado is coming right at him until it's nearly too late :O

I'll be back in a few hours - have to finish waking up. (Unless of course another idiot get's their sailboat stuck on a sandbar AGAIN.)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 12:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of intimidation, could we try to keep the [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Mozdoc&diff=0&oldid=197522 toughguy talk] to a minimum please? Using phrases like "it will be the biggest mistake of your life" are not going to help the situation any. Even if Ayukawataur is acting inappropriately, I'd like to ask that you not do the same. Thanks. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 17:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Douglas - Did not mean it to sound like I was trying to intimidate. I HAVE however dealt with people like her - they use any tactic, fair or foul, to get their way. I posted that so she knows that I'll fight back if she does, as I consider such to be extremely dishonest and do not stand for it.

Any suggestions on how I should reword it, to correct it so it's not mistaken?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== Image:4262568584.jpg ==

Hello AnthroSamurai ,

This is in regards to ''[[:Image:4262568584.jpg]]''. It has not been tagged with a copyright status. This can be a complicated area, so I can try to help if you need any. The Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:WP:IUP|Image use policy]] may give some background, but it isn't policy here.

To deal with this image, there are a few choices:

* If you are the copyright holder, release it under a free license, for example:
** [[Wikipedia:Public domain|Public domain]] <nowiki>{{PDImage}}</nowiki>
** [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons|Creative Commons]] Attribution-ShareAlike <nowiki>{{Cc-by-sa-2.5}}</nowiki>
** [[Wikipedia:GFDL|GFDL]] <nowiki>{{GFDL}}</nowiki>
* If you are asserting that this image is usable under fair use, add an appropriate fair use tag. A very basic summary is that fair use is used for commentary, criticism and review on the image when no free image could be used instead. Some fair use tags are:
** Logos: <nowiki>{{logo}}</nowiki>
** Covers: <nowiki>{{Cover}}</nowiki>
** Comic panels: <nowiki>{{Comic-panel}}</nowiki>
* If the image is already under a free license, provide information on the license, and tag the image if you can.
* If you would like the image to be deleted, ask any [[WikiFur:Administrators|administrator]]

To see a list of current copyright tags available on WikiFur, see [[:Category:Image copyright tags]]
If the copyright status is not resolved, the image may be deleted.

Unless you have a question for me specifically, I'd prefer responses on the page for the image. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 20:49, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

==Questions about Cubist==
I ask you, is there ANYTHING in my post that could be considered an attack on Cubist? And do you know of any reason why Cubist would choose to launch an attack upon me?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:The simplest conclusion is that he is being honest - that the reason for his assertion is he believes you to be a [[Wikipedia:Internet troll#Concern troll|concern troll]]. I don't see any reason to suggest that he is implying that you made an attack on him - just that he strongly disagrees with you and suspects your motives. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

QUOTE CUBIST: '''Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, the terrorists win!" Overblown histrionics much, V-boy?'''

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 18:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:Right. He believes that your statements are overblown histronics. The form of his expression might be considered an attack on you, but does not imply that he felt that you attacked ''him'', as you said. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, Cubist is claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, do you not think?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 18:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:No, that is not the meaning of the term. He appears to believe that you do not actually support the same goals as the wiki, but are trying to subvert them by pretending that you do. For example, if giving people fair treatment was one of the goals of the wiki you might express concerns that Mozdoc is not getting fair treatment, thereby hoping to elicit sympathy from those who would otherwise have a neutral or negative opinion. The trouble with making such assertions is that people's motives are unknown to us without some external form of confirmation, therefore they are hard to prove or disprove. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Mozdoc needs to learn to control his temper - I can sympathize with that. I also know how most of society can literally drive people like Mozdoc to such actions.

By only using punishment against him, we only further reinforce his behavior. That's not to say we should just give in and remove it to stop threats - just the opposite. HOWEVER, If it is removed, and you and the others make it CLEARLY known that
1 - it CAN be added in again should the threats resume.
2 - that it is being done for fairness sake.

I believe it will have a greater positive impact not only on the conflict but upon Mozdoc himself.

By the way, kindly take a look at my user page ;) :))
That should (hopefully) show we are two different peole - Mozdoc tends to simply open fire, wjile I tend to toy with those who make such pathetic attacks.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:52, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:As far as I know, the only person who has brought up the concept of you being the same person as Mozdoc is you. The assertions made by Cubist relate to the pursuit of similar goals, not similar identity.

:I am unsure how much any of us can help Mozdoc. I've talked to him on several occasions and made no long-term progress. The whole reason the page is here in the first place is that counseling hasn't worked to stop the harassment of others in the fandom. As I understand it, its purpose isn't to coerce the subject into good behaviour (because punishment doesn't work), but to ameliorate the effects of his bad behaviour on others. The question is whether or not the real name is a requirement for this. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 19:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

== IM and flames from this user ==

Between IMs like this:
:<tt>(12:47:41 PM) aysakiansamurai: As far as I am concerned, you, Ayuka, Spazkitty, Cubist, and all of wikifur in general can suck my dick, then fuck off and die. All you assholes are doing is using the shit to further anteagonize Mozdoc - and it's your own fault if he winds up going postal on your asses.</tt>
and [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User:Dmuth&diff=prev&oldid=203904 comments like this], it suggests to me that this user is more interested in stirring up trouble here than actually contributing.
I'm just sayin'. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 17:31, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you dickheads were'nt so hell bent on screwing with people then you wouldn't have so many people who hate you.

If you want to fuck with people, you'd better expect people to fuck with you. ;)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 20:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T19:58:27Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Vote tally (July 8rd, 2008) */

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T16:37:59Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Vote tally (July 8rd, 2008) */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting tally (June 29th, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

::The statement that Mozdoc was 'on staff' at Further Confusion 2008 is incorrect. He was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff. I speak from my position of Executive Secretary for FC2008. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 16:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

:::''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

:::sez findra: "(Mozdoc) was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff." I had been under the impression that a convention's "staff" includes ''everybody'' who works 'behind the scenes' to make a convention happen, be they full-fledged ConCom members or volunteer gophers or what. Stupid (albeit honest) question: Why ''isn't'' a "volunteer" considered to be part of a convention's "staff"? Is this just a traditional term of art, or what? [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

::::A staff member at a convention is usually someone who is scheduled in advance, works in a specific department, and has a specific role laid out for them. Volunteers by comparison are just random folks who walk up and offer to help. They have no set commitment, and can put in as much or as little work as they like, and can work in different areas during the con. Volunteers who work a lot usually become staff members the following year. :-) At least, that's how the volunteer and staff system works at Anthrocon. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 13:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

== Vote tally (July 3rd, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -6 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist, KendricksRedtail)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

:'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

:It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

:'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

:Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

::Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I have to agree with [[User:SpazKitty|SpazKitty]] here. For all that Mozdoc claims to be the victim of the world's hatred, he is more often than not the instigator of that ill-will himself. He recently applied to have his ban overturned on SpinDizzy muck, claiming to be reformed. His tolerance lasted until the head wizard (which is Austin Dern, and not me - a fact Mozdoc seems to repeatedly ignore) refused instant reinstatement, and said it would have to be discussed among the wizards. This one temporary set-back provoked the same behaviour of insults, obscenities, and threats that has been his hallmark. Seriously, folks, it's not that he's misunderstood. The suggestion that removal of his name will somehow 'draw the conflict to an end' is something I could only euphemistically call 'optimistic'. --[[User:Findra|Findra]]

::::I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

::::Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

::::::Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

::::::You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

::::::'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

::::::And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::::'''CONCERN TROLL'''
:::::::"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

:::::::Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

:::::::Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

:::::::If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

:::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I think its a bit of an invasion of privacy to have Mozodc's real name on here for everyone to see. [[User:Hellkat9940|Hellkat9940]] 05:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Stating the obvious (what most here seem to have missed) ==

It seems that in regards to the removal of Mozdoc's real name, most of the people here are missing what should be very obvious - the fact that the removal of his real name would not be a permanent, "for all time" event.

Just because it is removed, does NOT mean that it could never be added again should he become overly aggressive once more. ALSO, if he DOES straighen out, such information could be further added to his artcile showing that fact. The opposite can also be true.

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have before us a golden opportunity to guide this individual into a better life. Shall we use it, or throw it away?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:On second thought, why bother. Nobody really cares anyway - if they did, a lot of what is going wrong in this day and age would not be happening.

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Can we get this over with please? ==

Or is the date going to just keep getting pushed back until theres enough to support an unfavorable result because its July 7th today and thats when the final decision was supposed to take place. [[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 14:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:The decision closes on July 7th. Personally, I would have chosen the end of it for all time zones, but Siege is welcome to close the discussion at any time that they feel appropriate.

:If you have to rely on timing to ensure that you have a favourable response to the proposal, it rather brings into question your confidence of public support for the proposal. (I'm not too happy that we had to have a vote on this in the first place, rather than reaching a consensus on the best - any case where a significant proportion of the population feels we're doing the wrong thing is unfortunate.) --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 14:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

::It doesn't matter. As of this morning July seventh there was a one or two vote advantage allowing for the removal of my name from this damn article. No one added themselves to the persons against it, and no one decided to get off the fence and go for one side or the other. As far as I see it, this is fucking over. I'm getting my name off the article before this drags out another week because some moronic dumbass out there decides to bring up another excuse to drag it out even longer. I don't see why you can't all just agree to allow me to get the exclusion I ASKED for and get my name off of WikiFur ENTIRELY AS I WANT.
::--Mozdoc

:::sez Mozdoc: "As of this morning July seventh there was a one or two vote advantage allowing for the removal of my name from this damn article." No, there was not any such "advantage" -- not unless you know of any votes that were cast since the tally of 3 July 2008. Sure, the person signing themself as "Hellkat9940" offered their opinion on 7 July, but "Hellkat" did not go so far as to say "I vote to remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page". This leaves anybody but "Hellkat" unable to determine whether "Hellkat"'s position is "It's wrong, and I think it should be corrected," or "It's wrong, but I don't really care if it's corrected." As for the person who signed themself as "So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))", that's just AnthroSamurai under another pseudonym, and ''his'' (?) vote is already counted in the 3 July tally. So where's that "one or two vote advantage", Mozdoc? [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

::::'''Gee, it looks like you people are grasping for ANY EXCUSE to leave his name up on the article. Anyone with half a brain can see WHY Mozdoc is so pissed off at all of you - you're going out of your way to fuck with him.'''

::::'''You people are coming DANGEROURSLY CLOSE to making yet another deadly enemy - is that what you want?'''
::::'''And YOU Cubist, you better quit it with the childish shit before you get your ass paddled.'''

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 14:45, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

== Vote tally (July 8rd, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthroSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -6 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist, KendricksRedtail)

Deadlock. As some other users as suggested, we should put this already to rest (the proper way.) Contacting other registered (valid) users/Sysops by staff could be a solution, but (imho) this matter should be settled today [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 16:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Why bother??? You KNOW that certain people will just dominate the situation and his name won't be removed either way. People are just using this as another means of messing with the guy to set him off.'''

'''Correct me if I'm wrong, but even YOU have gone ahead and skewed the voting by selectively removing votes.'''

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 16:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

User talk:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-08T16:33:55Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Threats do not belong on WikiFur */

User:Dmuth

2008-07-08T16:33:26Z

AnthroSamurai: Replacing page with 'Hey moron, I had removed it before you even finished sending the message. NOW, if you want to continue to garbage.... Well, let's just say you'll find out how evil I really a...'

Hey moron, I had removed it before you even finished sending the message.

NOW, if you want to continue to garbage....

Well, let's just say you'll find out how evil I really am...

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T15:32:55Z

AnthroSamurai:

User:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-08T15:05:30Z

AnthroSamurai: Removing all content from page

User talk:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-08T14:58:17Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Threats do not belong on WikiFur */

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T14:55:12Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Can we get this over with please? */ YOU PEOPLE AREN'

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T14:46:52Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Can we get this over with please? */

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T14:45:26Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Can we get this over with please? */

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T02:39:11Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Can we get this over with please? */

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<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting tally (June 29th, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

::The statement that Mozdoc was 'on staff' at Further Confusion 2008 is incorrect. He was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff. I speak from my position of Executive Secretary for FC2008. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 16:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

:::''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

== Vote tally (July 3rd, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

:'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

:It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

:'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

:Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

::Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I have to agree with [[User:SpazKitty|SpazKitty]] here. For all that Mozdoc claims to be the victim of the world's hatred, he is more often than not the instigator of that ill-will himself. He recently applied to have his ban overturned on SpinDizzy muck, claiming to be reformed. His tolerance lasted until the head wizard (which is Austin Dern, and not me - a fact Mozdoc seems to repeatedly ignore) refused instant reinstatement, and said it would have to be discussed among the wizards. This one temporary set-back provoked the same behaviour of insults, obscenities, and threats that has been his hallmark. Seriously, folks, it's not that he's misunderstood. The suggestion that removal of his name will somehow 'draw the conflict to an end' is something I could only euphemistically call 'optimistic'. --[[User:Findra|Findra]]

::::I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

::::Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

::::::Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

::::::You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

::::::'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

::::::And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::::'''CONCERN TROLL'''
:::::::"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

:::::::Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

:::::::Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

:::::::If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

:::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I think its a bit of an invasion of privacy to have Mozodc's real name on here for everyone to see. [[User:Hellkat9940|Hellkat9940]] 05:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Stating the obvious (what most here seem to have missed) ==

It seems that in regards to the removal of Mozdoc's real name, most of the people here are missing what should be very obvious - the fact that the removal of his real name would not be a permanent, "for all time" event.

Just because it is removed, does NOT mean that it could never be added again should he become overly aggressive once more. ALSO, if he DOES straighen out, such information could be further added to his artcile showing that fact. The opposite can also be true.

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have before us a golden opportunity to guide this individual into a better life. Shall we use it, or throw it away?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:On second thought, why bother. Nobody really cares anyway - if they did, a lot of what is going wrong in this day and age would not be happening.

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Can we get this over with please? ==

Or is the date going to just keep getting pushed back until theres enough to support an unfavorable result because its July 7th today and thats when the final decision was supposed to take place. [[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 14:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:The decision closes on July 7th. Personally, I would have chosen the end of it for all time zones, but Siege is welcome to close the discussion at any time that they feel appropriate.

:If you have to rely on timing to ensure that you have a favourable response to the proposal, it rather brings into question your confidence of public support for the proposal. (I'm not too happy that we had to have a vote on this in the first place, rather than reaching a consensus on the best - any case where a significant proportion of the population feels we're doing the wrong thing is unfortunate.) --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 14:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. As of this morning July seventh there was a one or two vote advantage allowing for the removal of my name from this damn article. No one added themselves to the persons against it, and no one decided to get off the fence and go for one side or the other. As far as I see it, this is fucking over. I'm getting my name off the article before this drags out another week because some moronic dumbass out there decides to bring up another excuse to drag it out even longer. I don't see why you can't all just agree to allow me to get the exclusion I ASKED for and get my name off of WikiFur ENTIRELY AS I WANT.

--Mozdoc

== Vote Tally, July 7th 2008 2130hrs ==

'''+7 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai, Hellkat9940)

'''=4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

'''-6 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist, KendricksRedtail)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T02:38:31Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Vote Tally, July 7th 2008 2130hrs */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting tally (June 29th, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

::The statement that Mozdoc was 'on staff' at Further Confusion 2008 is incorrect. He was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff. I speak from my position of Executive Secretary for FC2008. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 16:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

:::''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

== Vote tally (July 3rd, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

:'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

:It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

:'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

:Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

::Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I have to agree with [[User:SpazKitty|SpazKitty]] here. For all that Mozdoc claims to be the victim of the world's hatred, he is more often than not the instigator of that ill-will himself. He recently applied to have his ban overturned on SpinDizzy muck, claiming to be reformed. His tolerance lasted until the head wizard (which is Austin Dern, and not me - a fact Mozdoc seems to repeatedly ignore) refused instant reinstatement, and said it would have to be discussed among the wizards. This one temporary set-back provoked the same behaviour of insults, obscenities, and threats that has been his hallmark. Seriously, folks, it's not that he's misunderstood. The suggestion that removal of his name will somehow 'draw the conflict to an end' is something I could only euphemistically call 'optimistic'. --[[User:Findra|Findra]]

::::I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

::::Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

::::::Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

::::::You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

::::::'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

::::::And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::::'''CONCERN TROLL'''
:::::::"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

:::::::Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

:::::::Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

:::::::If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

:::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I think its a bit of an invasion of privacy to have Mozodc's real name on here for everyone to see. [[User:Hellkat9940|Hellkat9940]] 05:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Stating the obvious (what most here seem to have missed) ==

It seems that in regards to the removal of Mozdoc's real name, most of the people here are missing what should be very obvious - the fact that the removal of his real name would not be a permanent, "for all time" event.

Just because it is removed, does NOT mean that it could never be added again should he become overly aggressive once more. ALSO, if he DOES straighen out, such information could be further added to his artcile showing that fact. The opposite can also be true.

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have before us a golden opportunity to guide this individual into a better life. Shall we use it, or throw it away?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:On second thought, why bother. Nobody really cares anyway - if they did, a lot of what is going wrong in this day and age would not be happening.

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Can we get this over with please? ==

Or is the date going to just keep getting pushed back until theres enough to support an unfavorable result because its July 7th today and thats when the final decision was supposed to take place. [[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 14:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:The decision closes on July 7th. Personally, I would have chosen the end of it for all time zones, but Siege is welcome to close the discussion at any time that they feel appropriate.

:If you have to rely on timing to ensure that you have a favourable response to the proposal, it rather brings into question your confidence of public support for the proposal. (I'm not too happy that we had to have a vote on this in the first place, rather than reaching a consensus on the best - any case where a significant proportion of the population feels we're doing the wrong thing is unfortunate.) --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 14:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. As of this morning July seventh there was a one or two vote advantage allowing for the removal of my name from this damn article. No one added themselves to the persons against it, and no one decided to get off the fence and go for one side or the other. As far as I see it, this is fucking over. I'm getting my name off the article before this drags out another week because some moronic dumbass out there decides to bring up another excuse to drag it out even longer. I don't see why you can't all just agree to allow me to get the exclusion I ASKED for and get my name off of WikiFur ENTIRELY AS I WANT.

--Mozdoc

[[Media:Example.ogg]]== Vote Tally, July 7th 2008 2130hrs ==

'''+7 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai, Hellkat9940)

'''=4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

'''-6 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist, KendricksRedtail)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T02:29:48Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Vote Tally, July 8th 2008 2130hrs */ new section

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting tally (June 29th, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

::The statement that Mozdoc was 'on staff' at Further Confusion 2008 is incorrect. He was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff. I speak from my position of Executive Secretary for FC2008. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 16:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

:::''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

== Vote tally (July 3rd, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

:'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

:It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

:'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

:Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

::Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I have to agree with [[User:SpazKitty|SpazKitty]] here. For all that Mozdoc claims to be the victim of the world's hatred, he is more often than not the instigator of that ill-will himself. He recently applied to have his ban overturned on SpinDizzy muck, claiming to be reformed. His tolerance lasted until the head wizard (which is Austin Dern, and not me - a fact Mozdoc seems to repeatedly ignore) refused instant reinstatement, and said it would have to be discussed among the wizards. This one temporary set-back provoked the same behaviour of insults, obscenities, and threats that has been his hallmark. Seriously, folks, it's not that he's misunderstood. The suggestion that removal of his name will somehow 'draw the conflict to an end' is something I could only euphemistically call 'optimistic'. --[[User:Findra|Findra]]

::::I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

::::Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

::::::Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

::::::You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

::::::'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

::::::And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::::'''CONCERN TROLL'''
:::::::"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

:::::::Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

:::::::Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

:::::::If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

:::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I think its a bit of an invasion of privacy to have Mozodc's real name on here for everyone to see. [[User:Hellkat9940|Hellkat9940]] 05:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Stating the obvious (what most here seem to have missed) ==

It seems that in regards to the removal of Mozdoc's real name, most of the people here are missing what should be very obvious - the fact that the removal of his real name would not be a permanent, "for all time" event.

Just because it is removed, does NOT mean that it could never be added again should he become overly aggressive once more. ALSO, if he DOES straighen out, such information could be further added to his artcile showing that fact. The opposite can also be true.

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have before us a golden opportunity to guide this individual into a better life. Shall we use it, or throw it away?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:On second thought, why bother. Nobody really cares anyway - if they did, a lot of what is going wrong in this day and age would not be happening.

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Can we get this over with please? ==

Or is the date going to just keep getting pushed back until theres enough to support an unfavorable result because its July 7th today and thats when the final decision was supposed to take place. [[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 14:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:The decision closes on July 7th. Personally, I would have chosen the end of it for all time zones, but Siege is welcome to close the discussion at any time that they feel appropriate.

:If you have to rely on timing to ensure that you have a favourable response to the proposal, it rather brings into question your confidence of public support for the proposal. (I'm not too happy that we had to have a vote on this in the first place, rather than reaching a consensus on the best - any case where a significant proportion of the population feels we're doing the wrong thing is unfortunate.) --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 14:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. As of this morning July seventh there was a one or two vote advantage allowing for the removal of my name from this damn article. No one added themselves to the persons against it, and no one decided to get off the fence and go for one side or the other. As far as I see it, this is fucking over. I'm getting my name off the article before this drags out another week because some moronic dumbass out there decides to bring up another excuse to drag it out even longer. I don't see why you can't all just agree to allow me to get the exclusion I ASKED for and get my name off of WikiFur ENTIRELY AS I WANT.

--Mozdoc

== Vote Tally, July 8th 2008 2130hrs ==

'''+7 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai, Hellkat9940)

'''=4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

'''-6 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist, KendricksRedtail)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-08T02:28:11Z

AnthroSamurai: Undo revision 203837 by KendricksRedtail (talk)

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting tally (June 29th, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

::The statement that Mozdoc was 'on staff' at Further Confusion 2008 is incorrect. He was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff. I speak from my position of Executive Secretary for FC2008. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 16:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

:::''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

== Vote tally (July 3rd, 2008) ==

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

:'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

:It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

:'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

:Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

::Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I have to agree with [[User:SpazKitty|SpazKitty]] here. For all that Mozdoc claims to be the victim of the world's hatred, he is more often than not the instigator of that ill-will himself. He recently applied to have his ban overturned on SpinDizzy muck, claiming to be reformed. His tolerance lasted until the head wizard (which is Austin Dern, and not me - a fact Mozdoc seems to repeatedly ignore) refused instant reinstatement, and said it would have to be discussed among the wizards. This one temporary set-back provoked the same behaviour of insults, obscenities, and threats that has been his hallmark. Seriously, folks, it's not that he's misunderstood. The suggestion that removal of his name will somehow 'draw the conflict to an end' is something I could only euphemistically call 'optimistic'. --[[User:Findra|Findra]]

::::I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

::::Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

::::::Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

::::::You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

::::::'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

::::::And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::::'''CONCERN TROLL'''
:::::::"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

:::::::Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

:::::::Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

:::::::If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

:::::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I think its a bit of an invasion of privacy to have Mozodc's real name on here for everyone to see. [[User:Hellkat9940|Hellkat9940]] 05:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Stating the obvious (what most here seem to have missed) ==

It seems that in regards to the removal of Mozdoc's real name, most of the people here are missing what should be very obvious - the fact that the removal of his real name would not be a permanent, "for all time" event.

Just because it is removed, does NOT mean that it could never be added again should he become overly aggressive once more. ALSO, if he DOES straighen out, such information could be further added to his artcile showing that fact. The opposite can also be true.

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have before us a golden opportunity to guide this individual into a better life. Shall we use it, or throw it away?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:On second thought, why bother. Nobody really cares anyway - if they did, a lot of what is going wrong in this day and age would not be happening.

:[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

== Can we get this over with please? ==

Or is the date going to just keep getting pushed back until theres enough to support an unfavorable result because its July 7th today and thats when the final decision was supposed to take place. [[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 14:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:The decision closes on July 7th. Personally, I would have chosen the end of it for all time zones, but Siege is welcome to close the discussion at any time that they feel appropriate.

:If you have to rely on timing to ensure that you have a favourable response to the proposal, it rather brings into question your confidence of public support for the proposal. (I'm not too happy that we had to have a vote on this in the first place, rather than reaching a consensus on the best - any case where a significant proportion of the population feels we're doing the wrong thing is unfortunate.) --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 14:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. As of this morning July seventh there was a one or two vote advantage allowing for the removal of my name from this damn article. No one added themselves to the persons against it, and no one decided to get off the fence and go for one side or the other. As far as I see it, this is fucking over. I'm getting my name off the article before this drags out another week because some moronic dumbass out there decides to bring up another excuse to drag it out even longer. I don't see why you can't all just agree to allow me to get the exclusion I ASKED for and get my name off of WikiFur ENTIRELY AS I WANT.

--Mozdoc

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-07T03:47:56Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Stating the obvious (what most here seem to have missed) */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
::The statement that Mozdoc was 'on staff' at Further Confusion 2008 is incorrect. He was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff. I speak from my position of Executive Secretary for FC2008. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 16:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

::I have to agree with [[User:SpazKitty|SpazKitty]] here. For all that Mozdoc claims to be the victim of the world's hatred, he is more often than not the instigator of that ill-will himself. He recently applied to have his ban overturned on SpinDizzy muck, claiming to be reformed. His tolerance lasted until the head wizard (which is Austin Dern, and not me - a fact Mozdoc seems to repeatedly ignore) refused instant reinstatement, and said it would have to be discussed among the wizards. This one temporary set-back provoked the same behaviour of insults, obscenities, and threats that has been his hallmark. Seriously, folks, it's not that he's misunderstood. The suggestion that removal of his name will somehow 'draw the conflict to an end' is something I could only euphemistically call 'optimistic'. --[[User:Findra|Findra]]

I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''CONCERN TROLL'''
"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

== Stating the obvious (what most here seem to have missed) ==

It seems that in regards to the removal of Mozdoc's real name, most of the people here are missing what should be very obvious - the fact that the removal of his real name would not be a permanent, "for all time" event.

Just because it is removed, does NOT mean that it could never be added again should he become overly aggressive once more. ALSO, if he DOES straighen out, such information could be further added to his artcile showing that fact. The opposite can also be true.

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have before us a golden opportunity to guide this individual into a better life. Shall we use it, or throw it away?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, why bother. Nobody really cares anyway - if they did, a lot of what is going wrong in this day and age would not be happening.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-07T03:40:58Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Stating the obvious (what most here seem to have missed) */ new section

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
::The statement that Mozdoc was 'on staff' at Further Confusion 2008 is incorrect. He was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff. I speak from my position of Executive Secretary for FC2008. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 16:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

::I have to agree with [[User:SpazKitty|SpazKitty]] here. For all that Mozdoc claims to be the victim of the world's hatred, he is more often than not the instigator of that ill-will himself. He recently applied to have his ban overturned on SpinDizzy muck, claiming to be reformed. His tolerance lasted until the head wizard (which is Austin Dern, and not me - a fact Mozdoc seems to repeatedly ignore) refused instant reinstatement, and said it would have to be discussed among the wizards. This one temporary set-back provoked the same behaviour of insults, obscenities, and threats that has been his hallmark. Seriously, folks, it's not that he's misunderstood. The suggestion that removal of his name will somehow 'draw the conflict to an end' is something I could only euphemistically call 'optimistic'. --[[User:Findra|Findra]]

I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''CONCERN TROLL'''
"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

== Stating the obvious (what most here seem to have missed) ==

It seems that in regards to the removal of Mozdoc's real name, most of the people here are missing what should be very obvious - the fact that the removal of his real name would not be a permanent, "for all time" event.

Just because it is removed, does NOT mean that it could never be added again should he become overly aggressive once more. ALSO, if he DOES straighen out, such information could be further added to his artcile showing that fact. The opposite can also be true.

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have before us a golden opportunity to guide this individual into a better life. Shall we use it, or throw it away?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 03:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-07T02:10:59Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */ Move Findra's posts to keep things in chronological order - Findra, PLEASE don't post in the middle like that, it makes it too hard for people to read new posts.

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''CONCERN TROLL'''
"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

::The statement that Mozdoc was 'on staff' at Further Confusion 2008 is incorrect. He was a volunteer at Further Confusion 2008, and not staff. I speak from my position of Executive Secretary for FC2008. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 16:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

::I have to agree with [[User:SpazKitty|SpazKitty]] here. For all that Mozdoc claims to be the victim of the world's hatred, he is more often than not the instigator of that ill-will himself. He recently applied to have his ban overturned on SpinDizzy muck, claiming to be reformed. His tolerance lasted until the head wizard (which is Austin Dern, and not me - a fact Mozdoc seems to repeatedly ignore) refused instant reinstatement, and said it would have to be discussed among the wizards. This one temporary set-back provoked the same behaviour of insults, obscenities, and threats that has been his hallmark. Seriously, folks, it's not that he's misunderstood. The suggestion that removal of his name will somehow 'draw the conflict to an end' is something I could only euphemistically call 'optimistic'. --[[User:Findra|Findra]]

User talk:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-05T20:03:46Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Dispute with Cubist */

User talk:GreenReaper

2008-07-05T18:55:16Z

AnthroSamurai: /* What is wrong with Cubist???? */ DAMNIT - keep forgeting to sign the posts. :))

{{User talk:GreenReaper/Header}}

== [[Sage Nadia]] ==

y'know man, you should really fix sage nadia's article.

I know this site's not known for being a reliable source of neutral point of view, but her article's really off the track. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:70.53.151.146|70.53.151.146]] ([[User talk:70.53.151.146|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/70.53.151.146|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.

thanks and no problem...

-Hydrassas

== What is wrong with Cubist???? ==

Honestly, what is this person's problem? Their retort to my post is baffling to say that least - as if they're on the verge of insanity or something...

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER! 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, the terrorists win!" Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. Cubist 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

I ask you, is there ANYTHING in my post that could be considered an attack on Cubist? And do you know of any reason why Cubist would choose to launch an attack upon me?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:The simplest conclusion is that he is being honest - that the reason for his assertion is he believes you to be a [[Wikipedia:Internet troll#Concern troll|concern troll]]. I don't see any reason to suggest that he is implying that you made an attack on him - just that he strongly disagrees with you and suspects your motives. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

QUOTE CUBIST: '''Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, the terrorists win!" Overblown histrionics much, V-boy?'''

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 18:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:Right. He believes that your statements are overblown histronics. The form of his expression might be considered an attack on you, but does not imply that he felt that you attacked ''him'', as you said. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, Cubist is claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, do you not think?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 18:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:No, that is not the meaning of the term. He appears to believe that you do not actually support the same goals as the wiki, but are trying to subvert them by pretending that you do. For example, if giving people fair treatment was one of the goals of the wiki you might express concerns that Mozdoc is not getting fair treatment, thereby hoping to elicit sympathy from those who would otherwise have a neutral or negative opinion. The trouble with making such assertions is that people's motives are unknown to us without some external form of confirmation, therefore they are hard to prove or disprove. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The method Cubist used to do it is SO childish, it makes me wonder if I should just put him/her over me knee and spank him/her. :))

Mozdoc needs to learn to control his temper - I can sympathize with that. I also know how most of society can literally drive people like Mozdoc to such actions.

By only using punishment against him, we only further reinforce his behavior. That's not to say we should just give in and remove it to stop threats - just the opposite. HOWEVER, If it is removed, and you and the others make it CLEARLY known that
1 - it CAN be added in again should the threats resume.
2 - that it is being done for fairness sake.

I believe it will have a greater positive impact not only on the conflict but upon Mozdoc himself.

By the way, kindly take a look at my user page ;) :))
That should (hopefully) show we are two different peole - Mozdoc tends to simply open fire, wjile I tend to toy with those who make such pathetic attacks.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

User talk:GreenReaper

2008-07-05T18:53:57Z

AnthroSamurai: /* What is wrong with Cubist???? */

User talk:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-05T18:52:08Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Dispute with Cubist */

Welcome to [[WikiFur]]! Thank you for registering an account - we look forward to working with you. [[Forum:Help desk|Let us know]] if you need any [[Help:Contents|help]] not already provided. If you would like help creating an article or just editing it, don't hesitate to consult the [[Help:Furry Book of Style|Furry Book of Style]] or just contact an [[WikiFur:Administrator|administrator]]. Have a nice day! :-)--[[User:Rat|Rat]] 10:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

== deletions ==

FIRST you delete my Monty Python lines, THEN you delete the image I put as a joke on my user page....

DARNIT, you never let me have ANY fun. :))

[[User:AnthroSamurai|AnthroSamurai]] 14:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

:But I didn't, [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Mozdoc&curid=27861&diff=195385&oldid=195382 Higgs Raccoon did].
:The reason why I removed the template was because while I did find it funny, it also caused your user page to show up in [[:Category:Protected pages]], which might cause some confusion.
:Now, if you'd to include an '''image''' that looks like the protected template (like [http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l93/dougmuth/?action=view&current=protected.jpg this one], or just copy and paste in the template code, I say go for it! Neither of those would cause any issues, and be rather amusing. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 14:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

== Removed "short story" tag ==

Mwalimu, I removed the tag you put on "Tales from the Reservation" because it's definately NOT a short story - The site does not have the entire story transcribed yet. Shoot, there's 3 parts of the story, and part-I is still being transcribed (got 6 pages left to go).

LUCKILY, part-II is only 5 pages, while part-III is 9 pages - because if each part was 17 pages (like part-I is), by the time I got halfway through part-II I would be in a padded cell with my fingers all bandaged up :))

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 20:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

:That's fine, if you wish to reassign it to a more appropriate category. Note, however, that [[:Category:Stories]] is essentially an obsolete and unused category. Perhaps a more appropriate category to assign it to would be [[:Category:Story series]]. --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 20:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I take it there's no category for Science Fiction???
[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

:At present we do not have categories by genre for works of literature (or for any other types of work unless you count Mature as a separate genre). Although [[:Category:Stories]] is unused, the text there is a guide of sorts for what category a story should be categorized in. --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 05:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

== Removal of contributions ==

You know, the end result of you removing your contributions is the loss of quality and content on this wiki - and someone will likely revert to the more desirable versions of those pages you "un-edit". As noted beneath every edit box, contributions are made under the GFDL, which essentially means that your alterations are considered open for the public good. Much as bad edits can be made good (see [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=FurNation_Worlds&action=history the history page for FurNation Worlds], specifically May 23 and 24 as an example of what happens to changes made in anger), so good edits can be retained through the diligence of any contributing party. I only have a special interest in diffs because I see those red !'s next to them, but I do have an interest in preserving good information. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I never signed any waiver or release stating that I lose rights to what I post. If I choose to remove it, that should be my privledge. If this site was not so willing to overlook one of it's users pushing a vendetta (and using absolutely childs ways of doing it) I would not mind contributing. However, I refuse to promote, contribute, or otherwise assist such a site that does condone such.

NOW, if you wish to keep re-adding the information, I can sit here all day reverting it. If you wish to ban me for that, I can simply create a page else detailing exactly what is happening here and why I have removed my contributions. Then this site will quickly gain the same sullied reputation as it's parent - wikipedia.

The choice is yours.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 16:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Contributions are not yours. If you spit in someone's coffee, you can't take it back out, can you? --<big>''' [[User:Brushwell Clinton|Brushwell]] '''</big>[[User_Talk:Brushwell Clinton|T a l k]] 17:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

:Quote: ''I never signed any waiver or release . . .'' Answer: You don't lose your rights - we gain some! It's only an official policy, noted on every edit page (stuck beneath the text box and above the subject field), and included in the user agreement when you create an account:
:''Please note that all contributions to WikiFur are considered to be released under the GFDL (see [[:WikiFur:Copyrights]] for details). If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly '''and redistributed at will''', then don't submit it here.'' (emphasis mine - I refer you again to [[:WikiFur:Copyrights]], which specifically covers this behavior)

:I am not party to your complaint, and have no wish to be party to an edit war. I'm trying to be neutral here. However, I see this as childish behavior, destructive to the wiki and to yourself. I, personally, will not ban you today, but I ''am'' going to seek consensus with other Administrators on your behavior if it continues; and you may yet receive that ban. I would especially note that [[User talk:Brushwell Clinton#Don't push it lad|your recent comment to fellow editor Brushwell Clinton]] can be considered a threat, and if you want even a hint of support from me, you might want to apologize to him and/or remove it.
: -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:22, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you SIEGE for showing that there ARE in fact double standards on wikifur.

Your directives are noted.... In this instance however, they are rejected. Should you be foolish enough to apply policy to me, while once again ignoring it in one of your own, then you will not only further prove that double standard, but can expect neither respect nor compliance.

Karma's a bitch.... And I act as her agent ;)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 19:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

:Oh please. You're not above the law. None of us are. Stop acting like you are. You submitted something, now it can be edited ruthlessly. Including keeping it intact as you edited it. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 03:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

::Yet you gleefully follow your master in her schemes, SPAZ. Of course, people like you - with rather limited intelligance - ALWAYS tend to blindly follow others, no matter if they're right or not. Your so willing to look the other way when your idol is doing something wrong, yet jump all over anyone who either calls them on it or mockingly immitates their actions.

::Therefore, at this time I would have to classify you as an adversary.

::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

:::...what the hell are you talking about? As for "limited intelligance" (sic -- ironic that you can't even spell 'intelligence' right, no?), I'd like to note that I was in gifted courses from kindergarten through high school. When I was tested back in 9th grade, my IQ was 120. I scored 1330 on the SATs. My GPA in high school was a 4.1 out of 4.0 (possible through advanced courses with extra "honors" credit available), and my GPA at UGA is a 3.4, and I made the Dean's List last fall. Who has limited intelligence, again? Don't talk down to me. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 00:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

:We are all agents of karma. I invite you to spell out your accusations and complaints, plain and clear in this space, so that we can confront them honestly and have done with this. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 14:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

First off Spaz, I too am laughing over that (I swear, unless I'm actually looking at the keyboard, from time to time my fingers seem to have a mind of their own - and WILL tend to deliberately hit the wrong keys :)) ) Does anyone happen to know of a good Exorcist??

Second, No matter who or what the article is about, there SHOULD be some sort of uniformity, and those who have a conflict with whoever/whatever the article is about should be discouraged from actively adding to it. As I have outlined before, that is pretty much the same as an officer conducting an investigation into a crime commited against them. Instead of being objective about it, the officer would be out for revenge - and where is the justice in that?

Though she may present herself as objective, and may even have the rest of you blinded to it, she DOES conitunally show signs that she IS in fact out to keep this conflict going. Allowing her to do so is a great disservice to wikifur. if you really want to see this place become the best that it can be, instead of jumping onher bandwagon you should at least try to make her see reason - and there IS a chance that she does not even realize herself what her true motivations are.

I WILL point out, first and formost, My own question "HE or SHE" - it was an honest question, as there was conflicting information and I wanted to know which was correct... not only for myself but for others who may come along and ALSO wonder. Ayuka's reaction was to claim I was "targeting" her for some unknown reason - which couldn't be further from the truth.

Oh, and Spaz? having a 4.1 grade average does not automatically make one smart.
:)) Just look at a storm chaser named '''Reed''' for proof of that. :)) He's almost lost his life at least twice because - in spite of his college education - he doesn't have the sense to realize when a tornado is coming right at him until it's nearly too late :O

I'll be back in a few hours - have to finish waking up. (Unless of course another idiot get's their sailboat stuck on a sandbar AGAIN.)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 12:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of intimidation, could we try to keep the [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Mozdoc&diff=0&oldid=197522 toughguy talk] to a minimum please? Using phrases like "it will be the biggest mistake of your life" are not going to help the situation any. Even if Ayukawataur is acting inappropriately, I'd like to ask that you not do the same. Thanks. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 17:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Douglas - Did not mean it to sound like I was trying to intimidate. I HAVE however dealt with people like her - they use any tactic, fair or foul, to get their way. I posted that so she knows that I'll fight back if she does, as I consider such to be extremely dishonest and do not stand for it.

Any suggestions on how I should reword it, to correct it so it's not mistaken?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== Image:4262568584.jpg ==

Hello AnthroSamurai ,

This is in regards to ''[[:Image:4262568584.jpg]]''. It has not been tagged with a copyright status. This can be a complicated area, so I can try to help if you need any. The Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:WP:IUP|Image use policy]] may give some background, but it isn't policy here.

To deal with this image, there are a few choices:

* If you are the copyright holder, release it under a free license, for example:
** [[Wikipedia:Public domain|Public domain]] <nowiki>{{PDImage}}</nowiki>
** [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons|Creative Commons]] Attribution-ShareAlike <nowiki>{{Cc-by-sa-2.5}}</nowiki>
** [[Wikipedia:GFDL|GFDL]] <nowiki>{{GFDL}}</nowiki>
* If you are asserting that this image is usable under fair use, add an appropriate fair use tag. A very basic summary is that fair use is used for commentary, criticism and review on the image when no free image could be used instead. Some fair use tags are:
** Logos: <nowiki>{{logo}}</nowiki>
** Covers: <nowiki>{{Cover}}</nowiki>
** Comic panels: <nowiki>{{Comic-panel}}</nowiki>
* If the image is already under a free license, provide information on the license, and tag the image if you can.
* If you would like the image to be deleted, ask any [[WikiFur:Administrators|administrator]]

To see a list of current copyright tags available on WikiFur, see [[:Category:Image copyright tags]]
If the copyright status is not resolved, the image may be deleted.

Unless you have a question for me specifically, I'd prefer responses on the page for the image. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 20:49, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

==Dispute with Cubist==
I ask you, is there ANYTHING in my post that could be considered an attack on Cubist? And do you know of any reason why Cubist would choose to launch an attack upon me?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:The simplest conclusion is that he is being honest - that the reason for his assertion is he believes you to be a [[Wikipedia:Internet troll#Concern troll|concern troll]]. I don't see any reason to suggest that he is implying that you made an attack on him - just that he strongly disagrees with you and suspects your motives. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

QUOTE CUBIST: '''Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, the terrorists win!" Overblown histrionics much, V-boy?'''

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 18:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:Right. He believes that your statements are overblown histronics. The form of his expression might be considered an attack on you, but does not imply that he felt that you attacked ''him'', as you said. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, Cubist is claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, do you not think?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 18:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

:No, that is not the meaning of the term. He appears to believe that you do not actually support the same goals as the wiki, but are trying to subvert them by pretending that you do. For example, if giving people fair treatment was one of the goals of the wiki you might express concerns that Mozdoc is not getting fair treatment, thereby hoping to elicit sympathy from those who would otherwise have a neutral or negative opinion. The trouble with making such assertions is that people's motives are unknown to us without some external form of confirmation, therefore they are hard to prove or disprove. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 18:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Mozdoc needs to learn to control his temper - I can sympathize with that. I also know how most of society can literally drive people like Mozdoc to such actions.

By only using punishment against him, we only further reinforce his behavior. That's not to say we should just give in and remove it to stop threats - just the opposite. HOWEVER, If it is removed, and you and the others make it CLEARLY known that
1 - it CAN be added in again should the threats resume.
2 - that it is being done for fairness sake.

I believe it will have a greater positive impact not only on the conflict but upon Mozdoc himself.

By the way, kindly take a look at my user page ;) :))
That should (hopefully) show we are two different peole - Mozdoc tends to simply open fire, wjile I tend to toy with those who make such pathetic attacks.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:52, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

User:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-05T18:42:40Z

AnthroSamurai:

[[image:Lag650.GIF]]

So it seems that CUBIST has found me out. IT'S TRUE - I AM a mozdoc sock!

Since I have been found out, I might as well come totally clean and confess to my OTHER crimes and offenses as well.

* If I had simply kept my big mouth shut and not given the idea for it, the Bolsheviks would have never came into power in Russia. Sorry.

* Yes, I admit it, I was really the one responsible for assasinating President Lincoln. I further compounded the crime by framing poor Mr. Booth. :(

* The USS Liberty would never have been attacked if I just had resisted and not painted "Israel sucks!" on top of the wheel house.

I only hope that someday people can forgive me for what I have done.......

I've been an Anthro fan (prefer that to "furry", as the term "furry" now-a-days tends to be lumped in with sick whackjobs who screw barnyard animals - and brag about it!) since the mid 1990's, what you could call the "Golden age" of the genre. Back when artists like [[Craig Carrington]], [[Michelle Light]], [[Shea Ryan]], and [[Kenneth Sample]] were the rising stars - and when a ceratin skunkette REALLY hit the big time. ;)

=== What's new ===
Currently, I'm hand-typing in an old story from that era - a story from the old [[American Journal of Anthropomorphics]] known as... [[Tales from the Reservation]].

And before you say it - NO, I'm not doing it to take credit or make money or steal someone else's work or screw them over or any of that other noise. I'm doing it because I thought it was a damned good story, and it shouldn't just fade away into obscurity like the works of so many OTHER decent authors/artists of the day. That and I dearly HOPE that doing so will help regain some attention and fans... to the point where the original author will pick up his quill once more and if not finish it at least add to it.

But here I am rambling, when I COULD be typing up more paragraphs. :)) So if you have any questions, comments, ideas, or so forth.. please feel free to leave me a message.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|AnthroSamurai]] 05:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

====Mother Nature's a pain in the a**====

The following TRUE STORY is currently playing out at a friend's apartment building.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Two days ago the landlord called in a guy to deal with a *little* bat problem. The guy's up on the roof installing "excluders"(pieces of wire mesh formed into narrow tubes & glued over openings) & caulking areas - ok, no problem.

No, wait, back up - '''BIG PROBLEM.'''

Sun goes down, and wouldn't you know it - '''TOTAL CHAOS!!!!!''' Bats start leaving and can't get back in to the point where it looks "worse than f***ing LAX outside! (And no - I'm not kidding!) They're swooping every which way & there's so many of them that you can't go outside without walking through a cloud of bats. Even a brief opening of a door brings a swarm, and the scrabbling sound of their little claws on the vynal siding & window frames is eerie to the point of bringing shudders.
His poor neighbor though has it worse - the landlord still hasn't fixed his screens..... the poor guy had at least a dozen using his place as an indoor race course earlier as he's sleeping. One finally got tired, landing on his pillow '''right next to his face.''' Cue 180db yelling, followed by your typical banging & crashing as he made a bee-line for the door(If you've ever heard Ray Stevens' "Sittin' up with the dead", you'll know what I'm talking about).

LAST NIGHT, more of the same. For an hour there's been nothing but a steady stream of crashes, bangs, & slams from his neighbor's place as the guy practically obliterates his apartment in a futile attempt to get rid of the bats.

finally he comes over - 3 sheets to the wind(Trust me, you would be too if you were going through what this guy is) - demanding we call the landlord and "get his *** over here".... at 1am. My friend and I BOTH feel for the guy, but there ARE better ways ways to commit suicide.

TO BE CONTINUED

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 11:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

|{{User deviantART name|news1}}

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-05T18:21:04Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''CONCERN TROLL'''
"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|So I am a SOCK?? WHY am I always the last to know these things? :))]] 18:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-05T18:18:39Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''CONCERN TROLL'''
"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, you are claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, Cubist.

If you are going to act that childish, then I suggest you have your parents supervise you whenever you use the computer.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 18:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-05T18:16:44Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''CONCERN TROLL'''
"A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group."

Excuse me a moment... (Falls out of chair laughing).

Ok, so let me get this straight - because I am TRYING to to get both sides to stand down to some degree, Cubist is claiming that I am Mozdoc using a second account???? Oh good lord, not ANOTHER person like "triple W" :)) Why is it anytime someone doesn't agree, they have to claim that the person they disagree with is a "sock"???? That is really pathetic, do you not think?

User talk:GreenReaper

2008-07-05T18:14:38Z

AnthroSamurai: /* What is wrong with Cubist???? */

User talk:GreenReaper

2008-07-05T18:06:17Z

AnthroSamurai: /* What is wrong with Cubist???? */

User talk:GreenReaper

2008-07-05T17:32:54Z

AnthroSamurai: /* What is wrong with Cubist???? */

User talk:GreenReaper

2008-07-05T17:31:43Z

AnthroSamurai: /* What is wrong with Cubist???? */ new section

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-05T17:06:50Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - my patience is greater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-05T17:05:10Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Shorter 'Vladuz': "If we don't remove Mozdoc's real name from his Wikifur page, ''the terrorists win!"'' Overblown histrionics much, V-boy? I say you're a concern troll, and I say the hell with you. And my vote remains the same. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 11:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

'''So now you resort to name calling and putting words in people's mouths, huh?''' You are one sad individual.

Cubist, you are really and truely showing that you cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner - and only further prove my statement about politeness versus hostility. :(

You ALSO seem to have a problem with misquoting others. I'm willing to bet that you are one of those that think it is "cool" to start trouble for your own amusement. I would advise you NOT to try starting anything with me - I patience is greaater than Mozdoc's, but so is my anger. To quote an old TV line "Don't make me angry - you wouldn't '''like''' me when I'm angry".

'''Intolerance breeds intolerance, CUBIST - remember that.'''

And for the record, the reason I am in support of "Vladuz" is quite simply because he showed ebay for what they REALLY are - greedy scum who do not care who get's scammed or hurt, so long as they get another dollar in their pockets.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 17:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Spaz Kitty

2008-07-05T00:12:33Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Message 412 */

{{InactiveUser}}
* '''[[User talk:SpazKitty/Archive1|Archive: February 2006 - August 2006]]'''
* '''[[User talk:SpazKitty/Archive2|Archive: September 2006 - September 2007]]'''

== Hm... ==

Is [[User talk:Wikifur|this]] an appropriate username? [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 15:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

:Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. I think it's just a mistake. I'll block it. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 16:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==

Hey GR -- I believe we have the same person doing some of the recent vandalism. [[User:170.215.11.79]] and [[User:170.215.11.13]] seem to be too similar within too few days to otherwise be a coincidence. Can you do a broad IP block on them? I'm not too familiar with that process. ^^ [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 20:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

:Sure. Blocked 170.215.11.0/24 for three months. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 21:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

==Is it really that big of a deal?==

Having that picture of the video game character on my page. Is it really that big of a deal to have it on there? It was made pretty obvious that I wasn't claiming the picture as mine, and I know the character is owned by Capcom and all that. It's no big deal I suppose, just wondering.. [[User:Areku Detritus|Areku Detritus]] 03:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)Areku Detritus

:It's big enough of one that we enforce deletion of copyright violations. Unless you created the image or have permission by the creator (by an artist of a badge, for example) to post the image, you can't post it. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 04:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

== [[Drayk]] and [[User:67.166.88.170]] ==

Regarding your recent block on User:67.166.88.170, it looks to me as if this user could be Drayk himself wishing for personal exclusion - not a certainty by any means, and we'd need a more verifiable request before treating it as such - but unless you know something I don't or I've overlooked something, it appears to be a definite possibility.

And yes, that article in its present form appears to be rather convoluted and in need of cleanup. If there is any truth in the article, it may be a borderline case of having cause not to allow personal exclusion. (My opinion - I'd lean toward allowing the exclusion, especially while references are lacking.) --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 20:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

:I'd normally assume the same as well, but [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Drayk&diff=191649&oldid=191648 this edit] made me think otherwise. Seems less of a desire for personal exclusion and more of a harassment thing when that's considered, but I could be wrong. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

== What to be done? ==

You labeled my recent page as "needs cleanup." Could you be more specific? What about tips an' tricks? I made the page at 5 in the morning so at least its in english, heh heh.

[[User:65.65.223.30|65.65.223.30]] 03:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

:Erm, your IP address linked here has no contributions, so no name to link it to. What article are you referring to? [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 04:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Odd but ok. [[Red]] is the article.

[[User:71.153.208.243|71.153.208.243]] 03:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

== Questionable nicknames ==

Personally I suspect that's more likely to be someone trying to be mysterious who was not aware that usernames were recorded in the edit history. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 06:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

== Just following a trend, Miss ==

If you or some other admin are about to delete or redirect [[:Category:Georgia (U.S. state) Wikifurries]], then what about [[:Category:Carolina Wikifurries]]? I only created the Georgia one after I saw the Carolina one a bit earlier, unless that one will be redirected into either [[:Category:South Carolina]] or [[:Category:North Carolina]]. --[[User:RayneVanDunem|RayneVanDunem]] 06:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

== Complete exclusion from WikiFur ==

My name is Mozdoc, I want to be completely removed from WikiFur. I want the article about me removed, the talk page removed, everything. I want complete and total exclusion unless I say otherwise that I want to come back.

--Mozdoc

== Citation needed? ==

Hi S.K. :D

Noticed you added a "citation needed" tag to the [[Tales from the Reservation]] article concerning the author's stance on the story. I just thought I'd let you know, it will most likely be impossible to cite it as it was from a series of emails with the author - emails which, sadly, were deleted by my ISP in a lame attempt to extort a higher monthly rate from me. :(

Personally, I feel it's a shame that he's walked away from this story - it DOES have an interesting aspect to it.

[[Special:Contributions/75.7.254.145|75.7.254.145]] 11:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

== If you only had a brain :)) ==

Yet you gleefully follow your master in her schemes, SPAZ. Of course, people like you - with rather limited intelligance - ALWAYS tend to blindly follow others, no matter if they're right or not. Your so willing to look the other way when your idol is doing something wrong, yet jump all over anyone who either calls them on it or mockingly immitates their actions.

Therefore, at this time I would have to classify you as an adversary.

:...what the hell are you talking about? As for "limited intelligance" (sic -- ironic that you can't even spell 'intelligence' right, no?), I'd like to note that I was in gifted courses from kindergarten through high school. When I was tested back in 9th grade, my IQ was 120. I scored 1330 on the SATs. My GPA in high school was a 4.1 out of 4.0 (possible through advanced courses with extra "honors" credit available), and my GPA at UGA is a 3.4, and I made the Dean's List last fall. Who has limited intelligence, again? Don't talk down to me. Spaz Kitty 00:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

'''User account "Spaz Kitty" is not registered. Please check if you want to create/edit this page.'''

How is it that you can have an "Administrator" tag when you are not even REGISTERED??? I think we need to take a long hard look at your actions...

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 11:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

:You didn't see the redirect? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 01:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

::-sigh...- Please stop targeting me because all I did was defend a person's gender mentality, regardless of whether or not they were involved with a certain other overly dramatic person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 15:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== Self defense ==

I recommend you learn Judo. I, too, have been tested at near-genius IQ levels from a young age, got a 1360 on my SATs, was in G&T classes and all of that. But there's no point bringing it up, especially as an extensive emotional defense against someone's cheap one-liner. Remember to smile at yourself, in sympathy if nothing else. After all, you have been given power to do the job of a wiki administrator: to Improve and Protect the Wiki. We are all Green Lantern if we choose to be. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 01:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

:I've taken Tae Kwon Do. ;) Decided not to take the final 'tests' to achieve my black belt, but still. I don't appreciate being yet another target of some persistent aggressor, and if the only way to avoid that is to take another break from the Wiki, so be it. I don't need any more sources of dumb drama in my life. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]]

Ah well, so much for trying to get you to reason things out and discuss matters.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 19:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

==Message 412==

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

And if you feel like swatting things, by all means come join a friend and I tonight at his Apartment building - 2 airsoft guns and 6 cans of silly string versus about a hundred BATS! :))

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 00:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Spaz Kitty

2008-07-05T00:12:01Z

AnthroSamurai:

{{InactiveUser}}
* '''[[User talk:SpazKitty/Archive1|Archive: February 2006 - August 2006]]'''
* '''[[User talk:SpazKitty/Archive2|Archive: September 2006 - September 2007]]'''

== Hm... ==

Is [[User talk:Wikifur|this]] an appropriate username? [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 15:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

:Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. I think it's just a mistake. I'll block it. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 16:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==

Hey GR -- I believe we have the same person doing some of the recent vandalism. [[User:170.215.11.79]] and [[User:170.215.11.13]] seem to be too similar within too few days to otherwise be a coincidence. Can you do a broad IP block on them? I'm not too familiar with that process. ^^ [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 20:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

:Sure. Blocked 170.215.11.0/24 for three months. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 21:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

==Is it really that big of a deal?==

Having that picture of the video game character on my page. Is it really that big of a deal to have it on there? It was made pretty obvious that I wasn't claiming the picture as mine, and I know the character is owned by Capcom and all that. It's no big deal I suppose, just wondering.. [[User:Areku Detritus|Areku Detritus]] 03:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)Areku Detritus

:It's big enough of one that we enforce deletion of copyright violations. Unless you created the image or have permission by the creator (by an artist of a badge, for example) to post the image, you can't post it. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 04:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

== [[Drayk]] and [[User:67.166.88.170]] ==

Regarding your recent block on User:67.166.88.170, it looks to me as if this user could be Drayk himself wishing for personal exclusion - not a certainty by any means, and we'd need a more verifiable request before treating it as such - but unless you know something I don't or I've overlooked something, it appears to be a definite possibility.

And yes, that article in its present form appears to be rather convoluted and in need of cleanup. If there is any truth in the article, it may be a borderline case of having cause not to allow personal exclusion. (My opinion - I'd lean toward allowing the exclusion, especially while references are lacking.) --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 20:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

:I'd normally assume the same as well, but [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Drayk&diff=191649&oldid=191648 this edit] made me think otherwise. Seems less of a desire for personal exclusion and more of a harassment thing when that's considered, but I could be wrong. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

== What to be done? ==

You labeled my recent page as "needs cleanup." Could you be more specific? What about tips an' tricks? I made the page at 5 in the morning so at least its in english, heh heh.

[[User:65.65.223.30|65.65.223.30]] 03:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

:Erm, your IP address linked here has no contributions, so no name to link it to. What article are you referring to? [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 04:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Odd but ok. [[Red]] is the article.

[[User:71.153.208.243|71.153.208.243]] 03:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

== Questionable nicknames ==

Personally I suspect that's more likely to be someone trying to be mysterious who was not aware that usernames were recorded in the edit history. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 06:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

== Just following a trend, Miss ==

If you or some other admin are about to delete or redirect [[:Category:Georgia (U.S. state) Wikifurries]], then what about [[:Category:Carolina Wikifurries]]? I only created the Georgia one after I saw the Carolina one a bit earlier, unless that one will be redirected into either [[:Category:South Carolina]] or [[:Category:North Carolina]]. --[[User:RayneVanDunem|RayneVanDunem]] 06:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

== Complete exclusion from WikiFur ==

My name is Mozdoc, I want to be completely removed from WikiFur. I want the article about me removed, the talk page removed, everything. I want complete and total exclusion unless I say otherwise that I want to come back.

--Mozdoc

== Citation needed? ==

Hi S.K. :D

Noticed you added a "citation needed" tag to the [[Tales from the Reservation]] article concerning the author's stance on the story. I just thought I'd let you know, it will most likely be impossible to cite it as it was from a series of emails with the author - emails which, sadly, were deleted by my ISP in a lame attempt to extort a higher monthly rate from me. :(

Personally, I feel it's a shame that he's walked away from this story - it DOES have an interesting aspect to it.

[[Special:Contributions/75.7.254.145|75.7.254.145]] 11:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

== If you only had a brain :)) ==

Yet you gleefully follow your master in her schemes, SPAZ. Of course, people like you - with rather limited intelligance - ALWAYS tend to blindly follow others, no matter if they're right or not. Your so willing to look the other way when your idol is doing something wrong, yet jump all over anyone who either calls them on it or mockingly immitates their actions.

Therefore, at this time I would have to classify you as an adversary.

:...what the hell are you talking about? As for "limited intelligance" (sic -- ironic that you can't even spell 'intelligence' right, no?), I'd like to note that I was in gifted courses from kindergarten through high school. When I was tested back in 9th grade, my IQ was 120. I scored 1330 on the SATs. My GPA in high school was a 4.1 out of 4.0 (possible through advanced courses with extra "honors" credit available), and my GPA at UGA is a 3.4, and I made the Dean's List last fall. Who has limited intelligence, again? Don't talk down to me. Spaz Kitty 00:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

'''User account "Spaz Kitty" is not registered. Please check if you want to create/edit this page.'''

How is it that you can have an "Administrator" tag when you are not even REGISTERED??? I think we need to take a long hard look at your actions...

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 11:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

:You didn't see the redirect? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 01:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

::-sigh...- Please stop targeting me because all I did was defend a person's gender mentality, regardless of whether or not they were involved with a certain other overly dramatic person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 15:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== Self defense ==

I recommend you learn Judo. I, too, have been tested at near-genius IQ levels from a young age, got a 1360 on my SATs, was in G&T classes and all of that. But there's no point bringing it up, especially as an extensive emotional defense against someone's cheap one-liner. Remember to smile at yourself, in sympathy if nothing else. After all, you have been given power to do the job of a wiki administrator: to Improve and Protect the Wiki. We are all Green Lantern if we choose to be. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 01:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

:I've taken Tae Kwon Do. ;) Decided not to take the final 'tests' to achieve my black belt, but still. I don't appreciate being yet another target of some persistent aggressor, and if the only way to avoid that is to take another break from the Wiki, so be it. I don't need any more sources of dumb drama in my life. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]]

Ah well, so much for trying to get you to reason things out and discuss matters.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 19:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

===Message 412===

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

And if you feel like swatting things, by all means come join a friend and I tonight at his Apartment building - 2 airsoft guns and 6 cans of silly string versus about a hundred BATS! :))

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 00:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-04T23:31:37Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

:Just popping in... The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And an annoying fly will certainly be the first one swatted. Nice people may be ignored sometimes, but they're also more appreciated. Assholes get noticed, for sure, but they're also loathed and often refused things just to spite their behavior (I've been intentionally difficult with rude customers before because of their attitude). Mozdoc has some really, really, REALLY bad manners, and we shouldn't automatically forgive him because of what "society" has supposedly taught him. His behavior seems more anti-social than social, anyway. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 22:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not suggesting automatic forgiveness - Instead, I suggest a means of drawing the conflict to an end instead of punch and counter punch.

Contact me on YIM if you have it, SpazzKitty - "aysakiansamurai".

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-04T22:17:14Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mozdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mozdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mozdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-07-04T22:14:56Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

::No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::::You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

::::Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

::::[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

::: I have to agree with Ayukawataur on this. Mozdoc doesn't have the right to change history, and he has a specific history with those two and Furbid. What I'm looking to support here are the three qualities of justice, mercy, and plain speaking, in support of the balance between individual rights and the public good. In this case, opening the question of whether retaining his personal name on the article is the right thing to do. If Mozdoc chose to refuse this community action and seek legal recourse, I would have to ask that the vote be abandoned, and I would refuse to make the change under discussion pending the results of said legal action. At this time, he hasn't said whether he wanted to abandon this route, so I am assuming in good faith that he is willing to continue to participate.

::: I don't see this as continuing a conflict. I see it as resolving a particular issue, so that people can agree to let it go, and everyone can move on and deal with the remaining effects of whatever decision is made. We need less drama and more joy around here, but not at the cost of others' dignity or need for fairness. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have removed the unregistered votes from the current tally. Registration is quick and easy, and we ask that if you want to vote, that you please give yourself a name we can address on this wiki. It doesn't have to be your fursona name (though many use theirs); it doesn't have to be your real name; but it is very helpful for us to be able to contact you to address any concerns that may arise (on your part or on ours). Besides, we like to see our community grow! :) -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

:On the (perhaps inaccurate) presumption that the voting deadline is, in fact, ''not'' 30 June, but, rather, 7 or 14 July: I vote for keeping Mozdoc's real name on his WikiFur page. The guy has made ''serious death threats,'' for crying out loud! As for his protestations about no longer wanting to be part of the fandom, said protestations ring ''awfully'' damned hollow, considering that he was [[http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#analysis_of_mozdoc_at_fc.2708 on staff at Further Confusion '08]] -- and those who think Ayukawataur is conducting some sort of vendetta against Mozdoc might, perhaps, take note of what the Big A. had to say about Mozdoc in that link: "I note that this year, [Mozdoc] was not only an excellent gofer, but he was quite well restrained. ... an excellent worker who was able to quite methodically reorganize the constore materials ... an excellent (how ever abrasive) door guard ... i would like it to be added to his page that he did behave himself quite well." ''Those'' are the words of someone who is monomaniacally determined to have Mozdoc's head on a platter, come hell or high water? Not. It's just a pity that Mozdoc's approach to this whole sordid affair has pretty much ''always'' been "You fucking MORONS can just ''obey my every command'' without question -- or '''I'll fucking KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP!!'''" As far as I'm concerned, Mozdoc is just trying to evade the consequences of his own ''highly'' suboptimal behavior. So, to sum up, I say "The name stays in". [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:''Instant addendum:'' It occured to me that Mozdoc's "I don't want to be part of this community" complaints merely refer to a desire to not be ''WikiFur'' community in specific, rather than a desire to not be part of ''furry fandom'' community in general. If that's the case, Mozdoc is ''seriously'' deluded. WikiFur exists to document the furry fandom; Mozdoc is very definitely a part of said fandom; therefore, Mozdoc damn well ''is'' 'fair game' for inclusion in WikiFur. And all of his '''obey me or DIE, you fucking morons!!!''' whines are just not going to help any. [[User:Cubist|Cubist]] 05:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

'''Tally as of July 3:'''

''' +6 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -5 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur, Cubist)

The vote seems close. If Michichael happens to pass by this page again, I'd be happy if he could clarify whether his last statement here qualifies as a different vote, just to make sure that his opinion is given proper acknowledgement. With the time extension in mind, I think '''July 7''' at '''12:01am''' is an entirely fair date to close for final tally and action taken, so I'll be giving my opinion at that time, and making my closing move on this page. And then I'll move on. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 06:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cubist, Have you ever even considered the the situation might be a result of the "breakdown of diplomacy"? If neither side is willing to lower their sabre, at least part way, things will only continue the way they have been.

'''Removing his name would not necessarily have to be permanent - whether it remains off the article would be dependant upon Mosdoc's future conduct.'''

It seems that in this day and age, the only thing being polite and respectful gets a person is ignored, told to f - off, or hit. And THAT is what I believe is going on with Mosdoc - society has kind of taught him the bad habit that unless you are confrontational and ready to resort to force, people will not listen to you.

'''If we are going to judge Mosdoc on what society as a whole has drummed into him, then we need also judge ourselves.'''

Do we wish to continue on this downward spiral that civilization is sliding down, or do we wish to TRY to at least slow the degeneration?

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

User:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-04T11:46:50Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Mother Nature's a pain in the a** */

[[image:Lag650.GIF]]

I've been an Anthro fan (prefer that to "furry", as the term "furry" now-a-days tends to be lumped in with sick whackjobs who screw barnyard animals - and brag about it!) since the mid 1990's, what you could call the "Golden age" of the genre. Back when artists like [[Craig Carrington]], [[Michelle Light]], [[Shea Ryan]], and [[Kenneth Sample]] were the rising stars - and when a ceratin skunkette REALLY hit the big time. ;)

=== What's new ===
Currently, I'm hand-typing in an old story from that era - a story from the old [[American Journal of Anthropomorphics]] known as... [[Tales from the Reservation]].

And before you say it - NO, I'm not doing it to take credit or make money or steal someone else's work or screw them over or any of that other noise. I'm doing it because I thought it was a damned good story, and it shouldn't just fade away into obscurity like the works of so many OTHER decent authors/artists of the day. That and I dearly HOPE that doing so will help regain some attention and fans... to the point where the original author will pick up his quill once more and if not finish it at least add to it.

But here I am rambling, when I COULD be typing up more paragraphs. :)) So if you have any questions, comments, ideas, or so forth.. please feel free to leave me a message.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|AnthroSamurai]] 05:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

====Mother Nature's a pain in the a**====

The following TRUE STORY is currently playing out at a friend's apartment building.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Two days ago the landlord called in a guy to deal with a *little* bat problem. The guy's up on the roof installing "excluders"(pieces of wire mesh formed into narrow tubes & glued over openings) & caulking areas - ok, no problem.

No, wait, back up - '''BIG PROBLEM.'''

Sun goes down, and wouldn't you know it - '''TOTAL CHAOS!!!!!''' Bats start leaving and can't get back in to the point where it looks "worse than f***ing LAX outside! (And no - I'm not kidding!) They're swooping every which way & there's so many of them that you can't go outside without walking through a cloud of bats. Even a brief opening of a door brings a swarm, and the scrabbling sound of their little claws on the vynal siding & window frames is eerie to the point of bringing shudders.
His poor neighbor though has it worse - the landlord still hasn't fixed his screens..... the poor guy had at least a dozen using his place as an indoor race course earlier as he's sleeping. One finally got tired, landing on his pillow '''right next to his face.''' Cue 180db yelling, followed by your typical banging & crashing as he made a bee-line for the door(If you've ever heard Ray Stevens' "Sittin' up with the dead", you'll know what I'm talking about).

LAST NIGHT, more of the same. For an hour there's been nothing but a steady stream of crashes, bangs, & slams from his neighbor's place as the guy practically obliterates his apartment in a futile attempt to get rid of the bats.

finally he comes over - 3 sheets to the wind(Trust me, you would be too if you were going through what this guy is) - demanding we call the landlord and "get his *** over here".... at 1am. My friend and I BOTH feel for the guy, but there ARE better ways ways to commit suicide.

TO BE CONTINUED

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 11:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

|{{User deviantART name|news1}}

User:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-04T11:40:20Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Mother Nature's a pain in the a** */

[[image:Lag650.GIF]]

I've been an Anthro fan (prefer that to "furry", as the term "furry" now-a-days tends to be lumped in with sick whackjobs who screw barnyard animals - and brag about it!) since the mid 1990's, what you could call the "Golden age" of the genre. Back when artists like [[Craig Carrington]], [[Michelle Light]], [[Shea Ryan]], and [[Kenneth Sample]] were the rising stars - and when a ceratin skunkette REALLY hit the big time. ;)

=== What's new ===
Currently, I'm hand-typing in an old story from that era - a story from the old [[American Journal of Anthropomorphics]] known as... [[Tales from the Reservation]].

And before you say it - NO, I'm not doing it to take credit or make money or steal someone else's work or screw them over or any of that other noise. I'm doing it because I thought it was a damned good story, and it shouldn't just fade away into obscurity like the works of so many OTHER decent authors/artists of the day. That and I dearly HOPE that doing so will help regain some attention and fans... to the point where the original author will pick up his quill once more and if not finish it at least add to it.

But here I am rambling, when I COULD be typing up more paragraphs. :)) So if you have any questions, comments, ideas, or so forth.. please feel free to leave me a message.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|AnthroSamurai]] 05:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

====Mother Nature's a pain in the a**====

The following TRUE STORY is currently playing out at a friend's apartment building.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Two days ago the landlord called in a guy to deal with a *little* bat problem. The guy's up on the roof installing "excluders"(pieces of wire mesh formed into narrow tubes & glued over openings) & caulking areas - ok, no problem.

No, wait, back up - '''BIG PROBLEM.'''

Sun goes down, and wouldn't you know it - '''TOTAL CHAOS!!!!!''' Bats start leaving and can't get back in to the point where it looks "worse than f***ing LAX outside! (And no - I'm not kidding!) They're swooping every which way & there's so many of them that you can't go outside without walking through a cloud of bats. Even a brief opening of a door brings a swarm, and the scrabbling sound of their little claws on the vynal siding & window frames is eerie to the point of bringing shudders.
His poor neighbor though has it worse - the landlord still hasn't fixed his screens..... the poor guy had at least a dozen using his place as an indoor race course earlier as he's sleeping. One finally got tired, landing on his pillow '''right next to his face.''' Cue 180db yelling, followed by your typical banging & crashing as he made a bee-line for the door(If you've ever heard Ray Stevens' "Sittin' up with the dead", you'll know what I'm talking about).

LAST NIGHT, more of the same. For an hour there's been nothing but a steady stream of crashes, bangs, & slams from his neighbor's place as the guy practically obliterates his apartment in a futile attempt to get rid of the bats.

finally he comes over - 3 sheets to the wind(Trust me, you would be too if you were going through what this guy is) - demanding we call the landlord and "get his *** over here".... at 1am. My friend and I BOTH feel for the guy, but there ARE better ways ways to commit suicide.

TO BE CONTINUED

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 11:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

|{{User deviantART name|news1}}

User:AnthroSamurai

2008-07-04T11:37:46Z

AnthroSamurai:

[[image:Lag650.GIF]]

I've been an Anthro fan (prefer that to "furry", as the term "furry" now-a-days tends to be lumped in with sick whackjobs who screw barnyard animals - and brag about it!) since the mid 1990's, what you could call the "Golden age" of the genre. Back when artists like [[Craig Carrington]], [[Michelle Light]], [[Shea Ryan]], and [[Kenneth Sample]] were the rising stars - and when a ceratin skunkette REALLY hit the big time. ;)

=== What's new ===
Currently, I'm hand-typing in an old story from that era - a story from the old [[American Journal of Anthropomorphics]] known as... [[Tales from the Reservation]].

And before you say it - NO, I'm not doing it to take credit or make money or steal someone else's work or screw them over or any of that other noise. I'm doing it because I thought it was a damned good story, and it shouldn't just fade away into obscurity like the works of so many OTHER decent authors/artists of the day. That and I dearly HOPE that doing so will help regain some attention and fans... to the point where the original author will pick up his quill once more and if not finish it at least add to it.

But here I am rambling, when I COULD be typing up more paragraphs. :)) So if you have any questions, comments, ideas, or so forth.. please feel free to leave me a message.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|AnthroSamurai]] 05:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

====Mother Nature's a pain in the a**====

The following TRUE STORY is currently playing out at a friend's apartment building.

#######################################################################

Two days ago the landlord called in a guy to deal with a *little* bat problem. The guy's up on the roof installing "excluders"(pieces of wire mesh formed into narrow tubes & glued over openings) & caulking areas - ok, no problem.

No, wait, back up - '''BIG PROBLEM.'''

Sun goes down, and wouldn't you know it - '''TOTAL CHAOS!!!!!''' Bats start leaving and can't get back in to the point where it looks "worse than f***ing LAX outside! (And no - I'm not kidding!) They're swooping every which way & there's so many of them that you can't go outside without walking through a cloud of bats. Even a brief opening of a door brings a swarm, and the scrabbling sound of their little claws on the vynal siding & window frames is eerie to the point of bringing shudders.
His poor neighbor though has it worse - the landlord still hasn't fixed his screens..... the poor guy had at least a dozen using his place as an indoor race course earlier as he's sleeping. One finally got tired, landing on his pillow '''right next to his face.''' Cue 180db yelling, followed by your typical banging & crashing as he made a bee-line for the door(If you've ever heard Ray Stevens' "Sittin' up with the dead", you'll know what I'm talking about).

LAST NIGHT, more of the same. For an hour there's been nothing but a steady stream of crashes, bangs, & slams from his neighbor's place as the guy practically obliterates his apartment in a futile attempt to get rid of the bats.

finally he comes over - 3 sheets to the wind(Trust me, you would be too if you were going through what this guy is) - demanding we call the landlord and "get his *** over here".... at 1am. My friend and I BOTH feel for the guy, but there ARE better ways ways to commit suicide.

TO BE CONYINUED

#################################################################

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 11:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

|{{User deviantART name|news1}}

Talk:Myspace

2008-07-03T00:12:57Z

AnthroSamurai: Created page with 'Ok, why are there entries for myspace, facebook, and other NON-FURRY RELATED sites on wikifur???????? ~~~~'

Ok, why are there entries for myspace, facebook, and other NON-FURRY RELATED sites on wikifur????????

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 00:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Siege

2008-06-30T04:14:40Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Life immitates art (lol) */ new section

{{/Header}}

== Didn't do it ==

You kniow Seige...I haven't done ANYTHING with what you say okay? There are TROLLS and spammers that are ruining my life and saying lies...please don;t be one of them...and ruin my page....okay? those areabunch of lies...

and please do not put anymore lies on my page, thank you.
(The preceding unsigned comment was posted by [[User:Asylumfoxy714|Asylumfoxy714]][[User talk:Asylumfoxy714|Talk]] at 13:29, 26 May 2008)

:That's why I removed the wild accusation which wasn't supported by its reference (I would need more than a lone post about being angry over unexpected jury duty to accept that that person had a "history" of unstable behavior), and placed the <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> tag on those claims which were retained. If those facts cannot be substantiated, they will eventually be removed. Give it a month or two, and remember that if you are accused of something, you can always ask for evidence.

:If you can prove that the claims are unsubstantiated or incorrect, please do so, and they will be removed immediately. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"and remember that if you are accused of something, you can always ask for evidence."

Except for in a real world court of law (would be funny if it wasn't so true).

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== Romanian & the IM ==

Honestly? I don't know how he got it - And I don't think ANYONE would be crazy enough to ASK.

(I have my suspicions that he's been watching me for years... and with the wierd things I've seen happen, there's NO WAY I want to get on this person's bad side)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 23:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== Request ==

Mozdoc has asked me to relay a request to you.

He asks that you unblock him on AIM, so that he might discuss matters with you directly.
Whether you grant his request is up to you.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 15:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

:I didn't block him; I turned off my client. However, I am willing to converse again, possibly later tonight. But if he wants wants me to take any action at all beyond listening to him complain, then he needs to treat me as an equal, rather than as a lesser being. I don't care if I'm not his buddy, but I won't respond to angry demands. My task as Administrator is to protect and improve the wiki, and he needs to make his argument in those terms: Will this change improve the wiki? I'll also be researching the implied claim: that his public actions are of little note and that any record of them on this wiki should be redacted through personal exclusion of the article about him and its talk page. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

::Actually, now that I've had a few hours to think about it, the implied claim in Mozdoc's exclusion request is that his public activity is not of ''sufficient'' note to warrant preventing an exclusion. We've excluded others whose activity in or affecting furry fandom was of note, both for their works, and for the influence they've had on those around them. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 22:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

== Mozdoc ==

I'd like to respectfully submit that this whole voting process seems to go against the [[Help:Furry_Book_of_Style#Articles_about_people|Furry Book of Style]]. Therefore I submit that Mozdoc's RL name should be removed from the article under existing standards and practices rather than draw the voting out an extra week or two.

PS: I sent a message to you directly since it seems that the discussion page was locked. It does not seem very fair to have them wait 2 weeks while the discussion page is locked and noone can weigh in on this arguement. --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 08:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
:I'm not Siege, but I hope I can answer your questions. Guidelines summarize existing practices; if the community agrees that it is not appropriate to follow a certain guideline, then can disregard it and possibly the guideline rewritten as a result.
:As for the vote taking a while, results so far have been equivocal, perhaps it the results had shown a clear preference for one or the other, the vote would be over already. I'm going to unprotect [[Talk:Mozdoc]]; I'm sure Siege is capable of evaluating whether votes by new or unregistered users are made in good faith or not. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 08:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:The page was partially locked by Spirou, to prevent unregistered users from commenting. I wasn't aware that it would also block newer users like yourself - did it, or what happened to prevent you? As for using the Furry Book of Style, this guideline has in the past been overridden by group consensus which stated that including the person's personal name was necessary for the public good. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:12, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
:Newly registered users have to wait at least 3 days last I checked before they can edit a semi-protected page. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 05:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

== Life immitates art (lol) ==

I thought this was funny enough to share.

"When hunting a vampire, be especially careful to remember the creature's intelligence. They can also blend into mortal society, dominating and manipulating the people around them, even going so far as to win unsuspecting allies and even friends. Cunning vampires may have the support, if not the love, of those around them. In short, do not assume that a vampire is a "two-dimensional" monster, interested only in drinking blood and draining life-energy. If these advantages were not enough, with time most vampires develop an incredible force of personality with which they delude and sway the gullible."

If you think on it, you'll realize what current wikifur event this could be applied to. :))

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 04:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-06-30T03:56:59Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

<div style="float:right; border:2px solid #bbbbbb; width:150px;">
<center>'''Discussion Pages'''</center>
*[[/Archive1|Archive 1]] (May 2007 - June 2008)
</div>
'''Older conversations have been archived. Please view the links on the right review old threads.'''

== Removal of real name? ==

Exclusion is out. It's fairly clear that this sort of pattern over an extended period of time is notable enough to be recorded. However, I for one would like to see this series of events peter out rather than continue. It's been five years and I suspect both parties are kinda sick of it. I've read over the above, and it seems like a fairly meaningless feud at this point.

With this in mind, I propose that we keep this article (with all appropriate modifications based on the above) but remove Mozdoc's real-life name from it, '''''on the condition''''' that there be nothing that requires the real name to be used in the public interest going forwards. For the avoidance of doubt, "nothing that requires its use" would include things like the need to renew a non-contact order because unwanted contact and/or threats have continued, either offline or online. If there is further need to remove Mozdoc from conventions then this would also be cause for re-addition of the name.

The only thing that makes me willing to suggest this is that so far I've seen no evidence that he actually has the capability to make his threats a reality. To my knowledge, he has not been charged with a violent crime. There is a lot of posturing and a lot of bitterness there, and I would like to have a way to prevent those being expressed in the future. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: i really have no opinion on this one. after all, his name is on the restraining order, and on many of the pages which are referenced. so removal would be a pointless gesture.
: it would definitely be nice to forget all of this. as i said before, i hold him no ill will. i am not capable of holding grudges. i never learned how. i will continue to document however. as it is history and others may learn from it to prevent from it being repeated.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 10:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: Speaking purely from a personal perspective, I would urge you to keep Mozdoc's real-life name in this particular page. After following many of the links provided to past and more recent behaviour, they show that Mozdoc has sent death threats to numerous different people. History has proven that such things should never be taken lightly. Having Mozdoc's real-life name on the page would be a useful time-saver for such victims if they wished to go down any legal avenues. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

: While it may be true, has it been shown that he's doing any of these recently? Frankly, the arguement that it is a time saver is null and void. In order to persue legal measures, one must feel that his threats would hold merit, meaning that they know who he is and that he has the ability to carry them out, so would be able to legitimately file a claim. Having the name here simply opens a route for harassment, be it due or undue, and is just fueling the fire. If he hasn't done anything in a while, which he hasn't, and if he continues to remain passive, I see no reason to keep the name here. Also, as you've said, if need be they can review the links if they so choose to dig deeper, as they are a matter of public record. The point remains that it is not necessary in the article. --Michichael 00:38, 12 May 2007

:: well, if you get technical, the moment he threatens another, and they have an actual fear, then by law his threats have merit. the law does not look at if they actually carried it out in that case. they look at intent. if a person is in legitimate fear, they have a right for the object of that fear to be stopped.
:: and, ummm. at the risk of sounding a bit repetitive. but he still harasses me at least twice a week minimum. he knows i can not just shut down my avenues of contact due to customer service issues. he also harasses me and my wife at conventions. and his threats remain constant against myself and others.
:: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 19:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::: Well, you still don't discount my point. This site is for information, not to play tit for tat on a feud between the parties. The real name is not NECESSARY to the merit of the article as it pertains to the fandom. A argument that it aids in legal action is irrelevant as past actions are part of public record, cited, and available on your own wiki. This really seems far too petty for a wiki. -- Michichael 14:18, 14 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 

:::: please do me th courtesy of not thinking i have anything against him. because i do not have anything for him other than a very unhealthy dose of pity. for some reason i can not feel anything but such for him. and please do not accuse me of using this as a place to get back at him, because there is nothing to get back for.
:::: i am constantly asked by people he threatens about him and what they can/should do. wiki is an information source and people come here for said information regarding jeremy. not for information about me. they deserve to have the same information to find out about him without the legal costs associated with it that i had to go through. because i did not go through it for myself. i did it so the community would have access to information with which to protect themselves from future instances.
:::: and, as a note: [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&action=history here] should be more than sufficient to explain his recent behavior.
:::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::: You still have yet to discount my point. If it is legal action they require, they can get it by contacting you directly, or by viewing the cited material. The direct posting of his name isn't necessary to the article, and has already been shown to cause anxiety to Mozdoc, which comes off as baiting, which has been pointed out elsewhere in this article. This is a private issue between you and Mozdoc, and it really does seem that you have something personal against him. Granted, I'm not defending his actions. I've told him numerous times that he needs to grow up with some of his comments, and would be happy to be a moderator if you two decided to attempt a discussion online. It seems to be that Mozdoc is trying to get back at you for perceived injustices, such as what's posted on this Wiki with his name, and you are continuing to try to goad him.

::::: It is all well and good to document and keep track for legal purposes, which are cited and referenced within the article, however, the inclusion of his RL name within the article seems irrelevant and really comes off as a personal touch of arrogance and "so there" attitude. I fail to see how the rest of the community cares what his real life name is, and if they do feel threatened by him, how having it here helps, over a freely available source elsewhere, through either you or the referenced sources. It's not necessary to the article, and your link to the talk page looks to me like, cleaning up his language, a request to remove it. So obviously you hit a nerve, and are milking it for what it's worth. This is a childish dispute, and really needs to end. Both of you. I'm not going to place blame on either side. I really could care less, but since seeing it, it does come off as an attempt to goad him. Further, I understand his concern about having his real name out there. I personally don't like having my real name available to people either, specifically due to harassment reasons. - Michichael 21:03 PST 15, May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.210.22 ([[User talk:76.166.210.22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.166.210.22|contribs]]) 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 

::::::Mozdoc has threatened to [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=138555 kill Ayukawataur] at Further Confusion next year. Not only would I advise someone letting the FC staff know about these repeated threats (and Ayukawa as well), I once again reemphasize my opposition to removing his name. If he ever followed through on any of his threats, would you still support having his name excluded from the article? Because I'm not willing to take such a gamble in what seems to be a mentally less than stable person. [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]] 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I agree with Spaz Kitty that Mozdoc's real name should remain, for the reasons stated above.----[[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]]([[User talk:DuncanDaHusky|talk]]) 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I agree that Moz is truly a "Special Child", but we shouldn't allow a doublestandard to be created, see: [[Lance Rund]]'s article, which was removed at his request, yet we still leave up articles about Moz and Sibe. If I have heard correctly, Sibe had also asked to not be listed. --Anonymous /b/ User {{unsigned|204.110.228.173}}

::::::::There is a single standard, and always has been: The consensus of WikiFur contributors. What you are seeing is that people may come to a different consensus in different situations, just like in real life.

::::::::Exclusion is a privilege, not a right. It has, however, historically been granted by default - that is, people have to give reasons why it should ''not'' be granted. This is because in most cases there are no such reasons. However, there have been several cases in which reasons were presented, and were felt by the community to be sufficient to deny the request for exclusion, and in some cases even a request to remove a real name. While it's hard to set a precise bound on these reasons, they have generally been along the lines of some kind of illegal action, the cause of controversy, and usually concern a recent or ongoing situation rather than a historical one.

::::::::People often consider there to be a [[Wikipedia:public interest|public interest]] which is served by having the article concerned up, too. For example, if an artist has been failing to do commissions, it might be considered wise to have an article about them which notes this, even if they do not want us to. It ''this'' case, the person concerned does not wish us to take note of his continued attempts to force members of the fandom to do his bidding by threats of bodily violence. I am not unappreciative of the view that there could be baiting on the other side, but as a practical matter, Mozdoc considers everyone who disagrees with him to be his enemy, and the mere fact that he has been denied access to FurBid as an aggressive act which must be remedied . . . "or else". He is not likely to be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation and removal of all contrary views, and I think the community has made it plain that this is not going to happen. No person's actions are above commentary by their peers except at the pleasure of those same peers, and it does not please us when a person keeps on threatening others with death when they've been told not to.

::::::::The situation of Lance Rund is somewhat different. He was excluded without fuss (as there was no such public interest in the material on the page about him), but ''also'' wished an item of information about himself to be removed from another article. This was the first time this had come up and there was [[Talk:Further Confusion/Eyes of the Night|extended debate]], the result of which was "it's generally OK to do that as long as it didn't matter exactly who the actor was". That is, his specific identity was tangential to the matter of fact. When you're talking about personal behaviour, that's obviously not the case - you can't just say "a popular artist" isn't doing their commissions. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::I forgot to post here, but I agree as well. Insomuch that I am no longer going to attempt to defend his actions. (Read his talk page...) - Michichael 01:19 PST 20, May 2007 (01:55 and 08:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

== Removal of real name? (part 2) ==

Considering the long discussion and apparent consensus on leaving in Mozdoc's real-life name on this article, I was very surprised to see that [[User:Rat|Rat]] had removed this from the main page. This is apparently not in accord with the 'will of the fandom'. I would like to propose that this change be reverted, unless [[User:Rat|Rat]] would like to justify this undiscussed change. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:The general impression I got was that while users were willing to remove it(admittedly with a few exceptions), there wasn't anyone willing to just go ahead and do it. If I've misjudged, I won't enforce removal if it's against the will of the community. --[[User:Rat|Rat]] 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, [[User:Rat|Rat]]. My admittedly brief refresh on this thread suggested that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]], [[User:SpazKitty|Spaz Kitty]], [[User:DuncanDaHusky|DuncanDaHusky]], and I seemed to be in strongly in favour of keeping the name, but looking back more carefully I see that [[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur]] was offering no strong opinion either way. Only Michichael seemed to be strongly against it, although his most recent post (09:19 PST 20, May 2007) seems to suggest that he might have altered that position. Hence, I still feel that there is a consensus to have the name left in the article. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]'s post seems to back up this position, I'd suggest. --[[User:Findra|Findra]] 18:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I don't mind the removal of Mozdoc's given name, under the provision already suggested by Greenreaper. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I vote in favor of removing his real name. Give the poor dude a break. He might be a fuckup, sure, but Wikifur is not a government agency or a public service, it's a privately run fandom resource that in my opinion is exercising authority it does not have by taking it upon itself to try to police the actions of individuals. [[Special:Contributions/24.6.68.79|24.6.68.79]] 18:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoops! That was me. [[User:Rootdown|Rootdown]] 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::I also vote in favor of removing his real name. In all situations online a real name is far less useful than a list of bannable IP addresses, which has obviously been included, along with his known monikers. The only benefit I can see in leaving this guy's name publicly available is that some sort of revenge might be meted out by allowing his Furry-based exploits to threaten his real-world associations. (i.e. -- airing dirty laundry for a potential employer to find should he google-search the player's name), and I would certainly hope the administrators of Wikifur would not condone the use of the Wiki for that purpose. Since it's clear the player in question wants his named removed, I don't think it does any credit to the Furry fandom, the WikiFur community, or anyone here that that particular request is denied. He could have asked more nicely, granted, but his mode of asking doesn't make the request itself less reasonable or its granting less right. [[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 12:35, 17 June, 2008 (CST)

::::::[[user:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]], discussion about the permanent removal of the user's real name is still ongoing on this talk page at the present time. No final decision has been made, hence the revert on the article until some kind of consensus is reached. My opinion on the mater?,... I'm taking a neutral position on this one (not worth the headache.) Will go with the Admin majority's final decision [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 06:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Is there some kind of timeframe in place for this decision? The discussion here seems to be largely neutral or in favor of removing the name. Also, I question the wisdom that lays this man's real name vulnerable during the deciding. It seems to me that it would make more sense to remove it until a decision has been made, given that its presence here does have real-world implications. [[User:HellcatCordelia|HellcatCordelia]] 1:30, 17 June 2008, (CST)

:::::::: i am going to cast my vote here, which is for the continued placement of his name on the page.
:::::::: first, it is his name, there is no doubt about it.
:::::::: second, he continues his harassment against not only myself, but others. including, but not limited to death threats, which happens to be a federal crime.
:::::::: individuals who are victims of his harassment may find information which may help them in stopping him from placing them in a constant state of fear for their own safety here.
:::::::: now i am all for forgiveness and giving people breaks. but, i also believe they need to illustrate that they have actually made a change in their behavior to warrant such. he has yet to really make any change.
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC) [tired and not really wanting to type any more]

:::::::::You know, this would be so much easier if you would just shut up and get the hell lost and exit this "fandom". How about that? This article is about me and every time I try to correct something or get something changed that would make continuing my existence in this world much easier, guess who has to show the hell up and fuck with things again? That's right, YOU. How about we all vote to just simply ignore Noriko/Ayukawataur's suggestions and move forward with the removal of my real name? I have ZERO desire to be listed here on WikiFur and if so far its only the outcry of ONE person against many, then tough shit. Move ahead with my name removal so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed and move on. Shut up for once Noriko.
:::::::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|06:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::::::''so that in the future I can get my ENTIRE article removed''
::::::::::No. Too many voices object on that point. Never going to happen. I am not opposed to the removal of your given name from this article, but there are objections and changes of position involved. Tomorrow, I will summarize the votes as stated, including dates and Admin status. Since there ''has'' been an objection raised in the past six days, I'm going to give this another week (to Mon 30 June) for people to comment and acknowledge old votes. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

== Voting phase ==

As stated under '''Exclusion redux''' and '''Removal of real name?''', I now hereby summarize the opinions given so far on this page as if they were a set of votes, to help establish consensus among the WikiFur community on this point. Registered users may add or change their position and commentary until this period for comment closes on '''Monday the 30th of June'''. On the advice of GreenReaper, I am not noting here who is an admin; you can easily [[WikiFur:Administrators|look it up]] if you want to know. Once we have a fully measured consensus - or its lack, which seems possible, I will have a guideline for what action to take next. Please understand that I am trying not to let my emotions show in this matter, in order to give my actions the appearance of fairness.
;Notes:
* Regardless of belligerence, this action is due to Mozdoc making a request for the single redaction of his legal name, which places him in the "for" category. My taking any action on this is already exceptional (especially since he has shopped around among admins through all possible means of contact, trying to find someone who would give him more than the time of day - and ended up banned from nearly all such avenues of contact due to his rude, solipsistic, domineering, and harassing behavior); should consensus point to removal of his name from this article, I will refuse to make any other change or allow the removal any other information from the page without a further exceptional reason (such as legal enforcement of a judicial ruling).
* There are two other users who appear to have interest primarily in this discussion and little else on WikiFur: Michichael (whose only contributions to the wiki are two comments to this Talk page and a spelling fix on [[Jwoulf]]), and HellcatCordelia (whose only contributions to the wiki are three comments on this Talk page). Because I know of no other reason to refuse it, I will extend full faith and credit to their comments here.

Summary of arguments as of Monday night, 23 June, if all commentary is given one full vote (let me know if I got the interpretation wrong or put you in the wrong category):
:'''+4 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, and HellcatCordelia)
Arguments include: Because he wants it and everyone who denies him is stupid and wrong; because he's changed and is currently harmless; WikiFur has no jurisdiction in matters of public interest; displaying the name is a form of punishment which shouldn't be allowed on the wiki.
:'''=3 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, and Spirou)
Responses include: Provisional support provided the public interest has no further need of such information; similar provisional support; refusing to take a position and inherit its pain.
:'''-4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)
Arguments include: Because he is a threat to others and should be watched; because he has made legally actionable threats, and keeping the name in will be a great time-saver for legal action; reiteration of threat which needs watching; because he has not changed from his prior recorded behavior, and should therefore not receive any greater privilege such as the removal of information.

Balanced, without a clear direction. That's how things stand at the start of this week, as I read them here. If someone wishes to make a clarifying argument, I would be pleased to attend to their words. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 08:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:The 30th of June conflicts with Anthrocon. Many users from this Wiki will be at the con from the 26th to the 29, and may not even be aware of this vote until after the 30th due to convention-related travel.
:I'd like to ask that the date be pushed back to '''July 7th''', so that all parties may have sufficient time to comment. --[[User:Dmuth|Douglas Muth]] 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

::I concur. I'll be out until late on the 30th. --[[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]]([[User talk:GreenReaper|talk]]) 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I vote for redaction as well. I can understand to some degree Mozdoc's hostility in the matter - I have dealt with far too many people who just do not listen to polite requests, and only pay attention when you "get in their face" as the saying goes.

:::What can it hurt to remove his real name from the article? After all, it would be a show of goodwill - and if he DOESN'T calm down as a result, it could always be re-added to the article ;) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 10:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I don't recall polite requests for exclusion from Mozdoc. Certainly [http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Mozdoc&diff=next&oldid=135319 the page edit] which [http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mozdoc/Archive1#Exclusion Rat interpreted as a request for exclusion] was less than polite.
::::At any rate, I'll declare myself neutral on whether to remove Mozdoc's real name from the article. -- [[User:Sine|Sine]] 18:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I disagree. Its YOUR loss and my gain that it just so happens that the thirtyith coincides with Anthrocon. This voting proceedure will END on the end of this month, and WILL NOT be extended any further. This bullshit has already been dragged out two fucking weeks, I'm not letting it go for a third. Stick to the original ending date and quit putting me through this bullshit.
::::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::: no offense jeremy, but i am going to agree with [[User:Dmuth|douglas muth]] above. it is in the better interests of the community to allow for a well informed decision to be made than a hasty one.
::::: and a bit of advice. attempting to dictate to the staff of wikifur how they will run their system is not going to win you any votes among them. in fact, illustrating a measure of patience and respect may actually help your case.
::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I'm in two minds about this. Do we not come to furries as a way of fantasy flight, to get away from real live? The truth is I read/scanning over this. To say that "Other people make names available so why not us?" is also not right. Most people start on here with only an internet name and grow from there, wishing there real life not to be known. Is this not going to cause people from steering clear of joining groups? Granted I am utterly mortified and disgusted about what I read above and simply could not read some of it. The thing that got me the most is the swearing in the posts. For me if he asks for it to be removed, it should unless he was found guilty in ordinance with the justice system. Looking over this I can see enough that this could happen.
::::: --[[User:VWhitepaw|VWhitepaw]] 18:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law (http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf). that is part of what the whole problem is. with his history of terrorizing others, people have a right to know who and what they are dealing with.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 01:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I say go ahead and remove the name. It's not really necessary to the article and if people really needed to obtain his name for some reason it'd probably be easy enough to find particularly since this debate has been going on for what over a month? --[[User:SnowdriftGM|SnowdriftGM]] 18:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I say go ahead and remove the name and article, if it is the wish of the person, to not be in such a article, then their wishes should be followed, and their names and the artical removed. Afterall its their name and such on the article. (Rangerwolf) {{unsignedIP|208.192.66.64|20:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)}}

To Sine: No, there was no polite request; I simply chose to interpret the verb rather than the emotion. As I may have mentioned before, if I were responding emotionally, Mozdoc would have just been ignored and the matter dropped.

Other business: A time extension has been proposed and seconded, and I don't personally see it as any great onus to add a further week, considering how much community attention is normally focused on Anthrocon (MU*s, chat rooms, and forums are generally depleted of users, and I don't see WikiFur as any exception to this). My intention is and has been to give time for adequate protest in the first phase (one week, unencumbered); protest was given, so I opened a vote. And I intend to give that vote sufficient time for comment, because that's the very purpose of a vote. I made no promise to render ''speedy'' judgement, but three weeks (total) is generally much faster than most cases progress in a real court of law. '''Monday the 7th of July''' is fine with me, and that makes four votes for extension; anyone else? -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 16:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:We are extending the vote to July 7th mostly for Anthrocon, as it affects a few furs/non-furs, but that is the July 4th weekend,... which will affect more people, their family and friends than the con itself (I'm flying cross country myself that weekend.) '''Monday July 14th''' maybe? [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 19:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

::You are NOT extending this shit to have two more fucking weeks included in it just because the dates you choose coincide with Anthrocon and the July Fourth weekend. Fuck off. Dragging me through all this shit, extending this fucking voting process THREE WEEKS all because of pointless events is evidence that NO ONE at WikiFur wants this bullshit to ever fucking end and so as such my entire article needs to be removed immediately. Its obvious NO ONE can keep a fucking time table and stick to it around here, always changing shit at a moments notice.

::THIS VOTING ENDS JUNE THIRTYITH AND NO LATER. I'M SICK OF THIS SHIT. MY ENTIRE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR REMOVAL FOR HAVING TO PUT UP WITH YOU PEOPLE.

::--Mozdoc {{unsigned|Mozdoc|23:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)}}

:::The events mentioned as reasons for extending the voting period are hardly inconsequential. I ''do'' want the bullshit to end, but mind you, we're most likely not focused on exactly the same thing. We aren't doing this to jerk your chain; we want to make sure the community is heard. However, I agree that this is getting a bit silly. My family rarely went anywhere on Independence Day - of course, for eight years or so, the local fireworks show was held at the end of our street - so I don't have a good measure on who's going to be out, or for how long; do you spend the entire week travelling and visiting, Spirou? Maybe close on '''Wednesday''' or '''Thursday''' so folks have a chance to catch up, but it's not going to be the end of the world if we can't catch absolutely everyone. -- [[User:Siege|Siege]]([[User talk:Siege|talk]]) 13:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

::::It was just a suggestion to discuss, not an order for people to carry on. [[User:Spirou|Spirou]] 20:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''Ayukawataur: "a quick note. he was found guilty in a court of law" '''

:::::I hate to say this, but being found guilty in a court of law in this country in this day and age does not really mean much....

:::::In my own research and experience, guilt or innocence tends to be decided by such things as wealth, influence, and popularity. :( Think I am wrong? Then by all :::::means ask me to show you some court records - some of which I was personally involved (did not do what I was accused of, yet was crucified anyway... ) [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 22:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: i am perfectly aware of how it works. i have been in court more times than i care to count. my wifes family is 99% lawyers, both defense and prosecution, as well as civil law. and i have to say one thing.
:::::: there is no doubt that jeremy did what he was penalized for. he was not only found guilty, he has admitted multiple times since that he has done it.
:::::: yes, i want to see this end as well. however, i have not gone through everything i did dealing with him for my own benefit. it was done to give the rest of the fandom a chance to see that you can stand up to his kind of behavior and can protect yourself from that form of lunacy. no one in this world deserves to be targeted by people like him. they do not need to be terrorized. they do not deserve it, and as long as there exist people who openly attempt to use threat of force as a domination factor, the rest of us have a right to know who they are and how to protect ourselves from them.
:::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 21:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Its just come to my attention that this website WikiFur is being unfair to those of the furry fandom who want to participate in this, and don't want to become part of your cesspool of shit by creating a name for themselves. Forcing people to become registered users? Completely unfair and uncalled for. I'm getting contacted by random people who've tried to add their support in to this page for one of the sides and find themselves unable to because they're being forced to register. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEADS THAT MAYBE NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE DRAGGED DOWN INTO SOME FULL OF SHIT WEBSITE LIKE WIKIFUR AND WANT TO KEEP THEIR NAMES OFF OF IT. If you're going to decide who can support who and leave comments here, then this website is really pushing some legal issues. EVERYONE should be allowed to leave their support here whether they're registered or not.

:::::::--Mozdoc{{unsigned|Mozdoc|00:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}

::::::: I voted to have his name removed because the recent continuation of this whole facade is becoming unreasonably reaching on the borderline of internet harasment on Mozdoc sake. Yes he may of said some things that were regrettable and I understand that you wish to protect users, but to hold someones real life information against their wishes is wrong and most probably illegal. There are websites like Fchan has a DNP list of those who wish not to have their information posted against their wishes.. Moz has told me that he only wants this page to be taken down and that he can move on from this ridiculousness. I already gave him advice to follow if this does continue on beyond Anthrocon.. I wish you luck Moz..

:::::::- Dunc (aka Duncan Wulfweards) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.142.24 ([[User talk:71.166.142.24|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.166.142.24|contribs]]) 00:38 and 00:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

:::::::: actually, and yes i know that is bad english, but it does working for me, the moment the order was signed by a judge, it became a matter of public record. what he did, how he did it, all files related to it, they are all available to any person who wishes to see them.
:::::::: and the copy of the order is available to any person who wishes to see it. and, at the very top of it, it has his name, what he was facing, and what the penalty was. since then he has not changed, he has not stopped his behavior, hurting people who do not deserve to be hurt, and has done nothing to illustrate that he deserves to be able to stealth his way into the lives of even more innocent artists.
:::::::: harassment is what he does... this is a debate on a privately owned system as to whether or not the administration, and the community, is going to turn a blind eyes and give into the threats of another individual, or stand up and tell him that they will not tolerate his bullying actions any more.
:::::::: (this post brought to you three dictionaries and two grammar checking systems.)
:::::::: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::What I cannot fathom is that the very person keeping this going on wikifur ALSO happens to have had personal involvement in the situation as a whole. I honestly believe that Ayukawataur needs to step back from such an active role in this matter. As I have said before, it is like an officer investigating a crime commjited against his/her family - A decent department will actually prohibit such because of the possibilty of clouded judgement and/or poor decisions on the part of that officer(to put it in layman's terms).

:::::::::There's too great of a chance for abuse if the officer IS involved in such a situation.

:::::::::To that end, I shall ask once more - Ayukawataur, will you kindly take a step back from your active role in this? [[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Current Voting Tally:'''

''' +8 for redaction''' (Mozdoc, Michichael, Rootdown, HellcatCordelia, SnowdriftGM, AnthoSamurai, Rangerwolf, Duncan Wulfweards)

''' =4 neutral''' (GreenReaper, Siege, Spirou, Sine )

''' -4 against redaction''' (Spaz Kitty, Findra, DuncanDaHusky, Ayukawataur)

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 14:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

: i really do not have a choice in this matter. other people keep dragging me back into it. not only did he drag me through more problems than many can comprehend, but it is a regular occurrence for others to come to me asking that i help them with how to deal with him.
: a large number have already contacted me and informed me that they wish they could vote, but the fact they can not vote anonymously means he would know who they are, and they fear for their own safety. even then many are afraid that he would figure out who they are by the ip records. kind of a sad thing when that much fear exists due to the actions of a single individual.
: either way, i never wanted to be part of this. i all but begged him, actually i did beg him back in the early days, to not force my hand. but he created this situation. i am doing no more than playing out the part i was handed. if you had been around since the beginning, and/or had actually done your research, you would have known that.
: my vote remains as is, however, i will also state if the community decides otherwise, i will be more than happy to be the one to remove it. though, i will also point out, there is information that is pertinent to both mine and my wifes, as well as furbids page, that was removed by me in order to better facilitate the information being in only a single place. that place was his page. if it is removed, i will be adding it back on the relative pages, for posterity sake.
: something you should keep in mind. this is not just his information here. it belongs to three of us. and as long as that is true, he may have the right to ask it to be removed from his page, but i also have the right to place the applicable information, sans name direct, on our pages - because it 'is' our history as well.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

No you will not repost any removed information on your own pages or elsewhere. My request for complete and total exclusion means that once this page is removed, any mention or whatever you have written on your pages about me is also to be removed. No questions asked. It will be like me and you never crossed paths.

--Mozdoc

: we are voting on your removal of name, not on the removal of your existence. and, you do not have the right to edit my life or my wifes life, or the history of what you have done to furbid.
: --[[User:Ayukawataur|Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur]] 00:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You know Ayukawataur, I'm begining to wonder whether you are friends with a certain woman from California whom has been termed the ''' "Wicked Witch of the West" '''. Your statement parrots her's nearly word for word on reasons why your supposed "friends" don't show up and vote, And in Triple W's case, she was doing her damnedest to manipulate all the users of an entire forum into backing her, using lies twisted information and even people's Real Life information to intimidate others into letting her have her way - which was total control of the forum - all the while claiming she was an "innocent victim" and people were out to get her "for no reason".

Granted Mozdoc taking Kacey's art and using it is not right (IF it happened exactly like you claim it did - there IS the possibility of embelishment), but continueing the conflict just because you can is not right either, regardless of the angle.

[[User:AnthroSamurai|All hail VLADUZ - the EBAY IMPALER!]] 03:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-06-29T14:23:00Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-06-29T14:22:15Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

Talk:Mozdoc

2008-06-29T14:11:10Z

AnthroSamurai: /* Voting phase */

Mozdoc

2008-06-29T10:03:09Z

AnthroSamurai:

{{cleanup}}
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derdnuh lareves ,epahs "edepruatnec" eht ni ,dna ,sgniw ,daeherof sih fo elddim eht ni eye driht a ,nroh [[nrocinu]] lacigam
.ainrofilaC ni sediser yltnerruc eH .wor a ni sosrot [[eniuqe]]

==Controversy==
===MUCK bans===

Mozdoc has been involved in several [[MUCK]] controversies, the earliest record of which stems from [[SpinDizzy MUCK]], where he was [[toading|toaded]] in 2000 after breaking into the account of [[Argon Hamilton|Argon]] (another player on the MUCK, and editor of "@Action News", SpiniDizzy MUCK's online newspaper. <ref>[http://www.spindizzy.org/newspaper037.htm Player's Account Hacked]</ref>

Later, in 2002, a follow up article concerning Mozdoc was posted in @Action News, written in a satirical style.<ref>[http://www.spindizzynews.org/newspaper101.htm Mozdoc Delights, Amuses Wizards With Inept Demands]</ref> The main thrust of the article stated that Mozdoc's original six-month suspension from the MUCK had been extended to a permanent ban. The article stated that this was due to his attempts to break through his suspension by repeated rapid connections to Spindizzy, and then when this failed by trying to evade the ban with a new character alias '''Myana''' from a different ISP, which succeeded until such time as the wizards detected the fraud. [[Findra]], server [[wizard]] on SpinDizzy, verified these parts of the satirical account as being accurate.<ref>[http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk%3AMozdoc&diff=162046&oldid=161985 Findra's message on WikiFur]</ref>

Mozdoc was also banned on [[Tapestries]] after attempting to escape the [[stockade]] by [[@toad]]ing himself and re-registering. Following [[WhiteWizard]]'s IP ban, the wizards received an email from Mozdoc containing a repeated expletive.<ref>[http://www.fur.com/tapestries/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=381&S=b69f4f0a49b79f4f0fa9d3acf8e5098f Can somebody please toad my characters?] post on Tapestries Forum by Mozdoc on May 28, 2002.</ref>

He was also banned from [[FurryMUCK]]<ref>http://www.furry.org.au/taurboard/messages/1216.html</ref>, [[Altered Realities]]<ref>[http://furry.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:GreenReaper&diff=prev&oldid=135907 Post to WikiFur from a source claiming to be a Wiz on the Altered Realities MUCK]</ref>, [[Unbridled Desires]]{{fact}}, and [[Meadows MUCK]], the latter after Mozdoc continued to harass the headwizard, an [[administrator]] of [[WikiFur]] under the name [[SpazKitty]], after she banned him on WikiFur.

As of May 2007, Mozdoc has been unbanned from FurryMUCK.

===Kacey Miyagami===

In early 2002, Mozdoc began to distribute [[Kacey Miyagami]]'s artwork without her authorization. Shortly after she protested and her wife, [[Ayukawataur]], stepped in to intervene, Mozdoc escalated his actions to open threats against Kacey's life. Following advice by her family, she filed a [[Wikipedia:Injunction#Temporary restraints|Restraining Order (TRO)]] in November of 2002. This injunction lasted from the date of filing until November 17, 2005.<ref>[http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/restrain.pdf Copy of public temporary restraining order]</ref>

Both Kacey and Noriko were named as protected parties on the TRO. This prohibited Mozdoc from having any contact with Ayukawataur and he was banned from [[FurBid]] as Noriko believed him using her system would inevitably result in contact. When the TRO expired in Novemeber of 2005, Ayukawataur reviewed his constant attempts to covertly use the system. She decided at that time to not restore his access. He was unbanned in September 2007, but re-banned a month and a half later.<ref>[http://ayukawataur.livejournal.com/59999.html mr. mozdoc] - {{lj-user|Ayukawatur}} (September 23, 2007)</ref><ref>[http://ayukawataur.livejournal.com/64078.html mozdoc reloaded] - {{lj-user|Ayukawatur}} (November 13, 2007)</ref> At this time there is no projected date to review his status.

[[Image:Mozdoc_fa.PNG|right|thumb|233px|FurAffinity "Hate Manifesto"]]
Mozdoc resumed his harassment, including death threats, after posting a manifesto on why he hates her on his user account at [[Fur Affinity]] in a journal entry dated October 14, 2006 <ref>http://www.furaffinity.net/user/mozdoc</ref>, and placing a disparaging comment under one of Kacey's artworks, "Farewell to Earth", a fifth-generation commission to [[Bernard Doove]]<ref>http://www.furaffinity.net/full/95170/</ref>. He was banned from the site the next day by FA administration. Mozdoc continued his anti-Kacey message in other forums as well.<ref>[http://www.furbid.ws/messageboard2/ his older posts on furbid]</ref><ref>[http://adorna.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=96118 post on epilogue]</ref><ref>[http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/The_Desktoop_by_Mozdoc.jpg the first] and [http://www.furbid.ws/images/administaur/FUCK_YOU_DEVIANTART_by_Mozdoc.jpg the second] both named exactly as were uploaded</ref><ref>[http://goldfur.livejournal.com/50106.html?nc=18 Attack on Goldfur]</ref>

This harassment continued in person again at [[Further Confusion 2007]]. He was removed from the [[convention]] by con authorities for harassment after multiple warnings, and for attempting to take covert photographs of Kacey's print display books. He was allegedly removed from the grounds later that evening by hotel authorities for being in con areas without a con membership.<ref>It is generally believed that these allegations are true. However, [[Anthropomorphic Arts and Education|AAE]] has officially declined to comment on the issue.</ref>

== References ==
<references />

== External links ==
{{Contributor}}
* [http://mozdoc.livejournal.com Mozdoc] on [[LiveJournal]] (banned)
* [http://mzdc.livejournal.com Mzdc] on LiveJournal (banned)
* [http://anotherfurry.livejournal.com AnotherFurry] on LiveJournal (banned)
* [http://mozdoc.deviantart.com/ Mozdoc] on [[deviantART]] (banned)
* [http://www.furaffinity.net/user/mozdoc Mozdoc] on [[FurAffinity]] (banned)
* [http://mozdocalicentaur.deviantart.com/ mozdocalicentaur] on [[deviantART]] (banned)

[[Category:People]][[Category:Taur characters]][[Category:California]]