WikiFur - User contributions [en]

Furnal Equinox

2010-07-23T22:09:27Z

173.206.46.46: Undo revision 300664 by Mwalimu (Talk) content was not contested.

{{Infobox convention
|name = Furnal Equinox
|logo =
|caption =
| subject = Furry
| location = {{flagdiv|can|[[Wikipedia:Toronto|Toronto]], [[Wikipedia:Ontario|Ontario]], [[Wikipedia:Canada|Canada]]}}
| url = http://www.furnalequinox.com/
| status = Ongoing
| first = 6-7 March 2010
| final =
| organizer = Anthropomorphic Events of Ontario
| charity =
| resources = {{con resources}}
}}{{Furnal Equinox}}
'''Furnal Equinox''' is a furry [[convention]] held during the month of March in [[Wikipedia:Toronto|Toronto]], [[Wikipedia:Ontario|Ontario]], [[Wikipedia:Canada|Canada]].

== Origins ==

Prior to Furnal Equinox's establishment, the largest gatherings in the [[Toronto Furry|Toronto area]] tended to be larger furmeets such as the [[Islington Furmeet]] and BBQs hosted by [[Potoroo]], which regularly attracted between 50 to 100 people.

It is arguable that the [[Islington Furmeet]] which was started by [[Ki Wind]] and [[Dan Skunk]] was the precursor to [[Furnal Equinox]] for it was it's success on June 14th, 2008, that inspired members of the community to think more seriously that a convention would be possible. The first [[Islington Furmeet]] brought together artists, dealers, fursuiters and had a dance, video and board games, lunch and dinner.

An Excerpt from [[Morgan]]'s report on the first Islington meet.

{{Quote|As at least some of you know, the dysfunctional social maniacs in the
Toronto Furry sorta-organization managed to actually co-operate long enough
to organize something big. As a group. With different people doing
different things.

I hadn't thought it was possible.

Of course it WAS only one day, and may have been a bit TOO optimistic, but
everything has to start somewhere.|Morgan|http://www.ontariofurries.ca/islingtonfurmeet/1/}}

Durring the lead up to [[Islington Furmeet]] 2 on November 6th, 2008, [[Shiro Tora]] started a discussion on the [[Toronto Furry]] mailing list about starting a convention:

{{Quote|I wonder if this was how Anthrocon got started?
North-rocon!
Tor-throcon!
TorFurCon!
someone book the website and the hotels!
drinking age of 19; they'll sweep across ther border in droves!|Shiro Tora|http://mailman.catsden.net/mailman/listinfo/torfur
}}

This lead to a long discussion of what would be required to do this that included [[Dan Skunk]] choosing the name "CanFurEnce," [[Pyesetz the Dog]] designing a logo, and [[Dan Skunk]] nominating [[Shiro Tora]] as chair.

On Wednessday, November 19, 2008, [[M-So]], [[Dan Skunk]], and [[Danruk]] made the first visit to look at the hotel that would eventually be chosen for the convention.

On Saturday, December 2nd, 2008, [[Dan Skunk]] created a board on [[Ontario Furries]] for people to discuss a convention in Toronto.

{{Quote|We had a lot of discussion about it here before, but we now have someone that has 5 thousand dollars for it and another that said a few thousand wouldn't be a problem.

Several people with experience running conventions have expressed interest in helping run it.

We spend a lot of last night discussing management, finances, and liability.

Looks like it's no longer a question of if it's going to happen, but how we're going to do it.

I've made a board on the web site we could use to collect ideas and help.

I'd really like to see us come together and support this since people are going to be putting a lot of effort into it for all of our benefit.|Dan Skunk|http://mailman.catsden.net/mailman/listinfo/torfur}}

The discussion hear lead to a committee being chosen by the members of [[Ontario Furries]] bringing together a number of interested individuals and the financial resources to develop a convention committee and the required organization.

The founding organizing committee consisted of [[Aaeden]], [[Benjamin]], [[Blindsight]], [[Danruk]], [[Dan Skunk]], [[Ki Wind]], [[M-So]], [[Pakesh De]], [[Potoroo]], [[Scani]], and [[Shiro Tora]].

[[Dan Skunk]] promoted having the convention in March after discussions with [[Heather Bruton]] so that she would be able to attend.

The name Furnal Equinox was conceived by [[ShiroTora]] and plays upon the convention's placement in March during the beginning of spring (the vernal equinox).<ref>''[http://www.furnalequinox.com/About-Us About Us]'', Furnal Equinox website (accessed 14 July 2010)</ref>

[[Dan Skunk]] concieved the idea of having a small convention in 2010, before the planned 3 day convention in 2011.

Furnal Equinox was formally announced to the world on July 1 (Canada Day), 2009.<ref>''[http://www.furnalequinox.com/FAQ FAQ], Furnal Equinox website (accessed 14 July 2010)</ref>

Furnal Equinox was promoted in its first year as "Toronto's First Furry Convention".

== History ==

'''[[Furnal Equinox 2010]]''' took place on March 6-7, 2010 at the Doubletree by Hilton Toronto Airport, attracting 330 attendees - the most for any furry event in Canada up to that point. The guests of honour were [[Heather Bruton]] and [[BushyCat]], and the convention celebrated the theme of "Furry Fun and Games".

'''[[Furnal Equinox 2011]]''' will occur on March 11-13, 2011, returning to the Doubletree Toronto Airport. The Guests of Honour will be [[FirestormSix]] and [[ZEN]], and the convention's theme will be "Wild Magic".

== Staff ==

[[Pakesh De]] and [[Blindsight]] are the current co-chairs of Furnal Equinox.

Others currently involved include [[Aaeden Aranor]], [[Arctic]] (security), [[Arinmal]], [[Arrowroot]] (dealers), [[Kimba]], [[Scani]] (publicity/business), and [[Shane]] (registration/volunteers).

Furnal Equinox is operated by Anthropomorphic Events of Ontario, a not-for-profit corporation in the Province of Ontario.

==References==
<references />

==External links==
*[http://www.furnalequinox.com/ Furnal Equinox website]
*[http://forums.furnalequinox.com/ Furnal Equinox forum]
*[http://community.livejournal.com/furnalequinox/ Furnal Equinox on LiveJournal]
*[http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=165793707559 Furnal Equinox on Facebook]
*[http://twitter.com/furnalequinox Furnal Equinox on Twitter]
* {{con resources}}

{{Conventions}}

[[Category:Conventions]]
[[Category:Toronto]]
[[Category:2010 births]]

Talk:Furnal Equinox

2010-07-23T22:08:16Z

173.206.46.46: /* Request for Intervention */

Furnal Equinox was not created by Danskunk, nor was it created by Ontariofurries and was put together by a committe of people who met on Ontariofurries but that was the extent of it, anything added by or about Danskunk was added by him and are falsifications and lies put into his head by his own self.
:If Dan Skunk was not the founder, can you please provide online evidence of who the real founder is, so this matter can be put to rest? [[User:Silver seren|Silver]][[User talk:Silver seren|seren]][[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]] 17:43, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Members of the committe and con as of First Con in 2010.

Co-Chairs: Blindsight_Wolf
Pakesh_De
Committe: Scani
Shane
Crassadon
ArrowRoot
ArcticFox
Morgan(now Deceased)

There was other people who were involved in the beginning months, they either dropped out, were removed or voted out. As the committee developed and became the current group.

Registered corporate members are: Blindsight_wolf, Scani, Pakesh_de, Shane, Crassadon.
These are people who are registered Directors of the convention. Legally registered on the NPO.

The list of members and concom is available at www.furnalequinox.com and also the original page creator is Scani, so you can also speak with him.

Shane.

: While the list of concom members is not available on Furnal Equinox's website, I can attest that the information Shane has provided is correct for the 2010 concom and can be sourced from our conbook for that year. To reiterate, the claims being made in the article do not reflect Furnal Equinox's stance. I'm open to any questions if desired, though. --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 13:28, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

A lot of the source information was removed in 2009 as I removed the Toronto Furry Convention forum from Ontario Furries when it fell into dissuse and hadn't yet created a system to archive deleted posts.

There are a number of people that can corroborate my claim of starting Furnal Equinox, and I could cite some of the early conversations I had with people about the convention from the summer of 2008 but it will be impossible to present anything that can not be contested by Furnal Equinox.

I don't want to be associated with Furnal Equinox and I don't think they want to be associated with me, but I believe the community deserves to have an accurate history of events and that people should be credited for their contributions to the furry community.

As there is likely not going to be a consensus in this situation, the only solution I can see is that we have a section here describing controversy over certain facts and present the differing viewpoints people have on it.

--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 16:55, 18 July 2010

:It's... very unfortunate that a dispute between Dan and FE has been brought into the public eye once again. I don't wish to bring arguments with Dan onto WikiFur, because this is not its purpose for the articles here to be a battleground for the conflicts themselves... only how they're reported, if seen as notable enough to be.
:First of all, I've cleared the "Controversy" section from the article. However, in the interests of good faith, I've copied that section to the bottom of the talk page with two understandings: first, perhaps we can establish a consensus among not just Dan and FE but with the mediation of other WikiFur editors on whether it is needed. Secondly, if there is a consensus that it IS needed, then that section can be collectively edited by not just the stakeholders, but by all in a manner that is satisfactory to all. Personally, I can honestly say that we would rather not see the section there, because it brings forth conflict that, from our evaluation, people would rather just avoid. Moreover, its presence undermines the credibility of both parties.
:However, in the interests of disclosure, this is my understanding of the events that have taken place between Dan and FE (perhaps from a more FE-ish perspective)

:*A Toronto Furry Convention board existed on Ontario Furries from at least late 2008. A number of the current concom members posted on this forum, where a number of ideas were discussed (though no firm decisions re: the planning of the convention as it is taking place now took place as a result - i.e. we did not enter into any contracts with any party, and as the name will suggest, the name Furnal Equinox was not yet decided at this point.)
:*After several months of discussion, a private mailing list was created with the involvement of all those who expressed an interest in serving on the convention committee; their first action was to elect Pakesh De as convention chairman and subsequent decisions such as name, date, and venue were made through here.
:*Anthropomorphic Events of Ontario (AEO) was incorporated as a Ontario corporation without share capital on June 11, 2009. Dan's name was included in the application for incorporation as an initial director.
:*At a meeting of the convention committee on July 20, 2009, Dan was dismissed from Furnal Equinox's concom by a unanimous vote. His actions were perceived as progressively more erratic and independent of the direction the remainder of concom was taking (I refer to it as "we were moving left and he was moving right"), and the consensus was that his removal was in the best interests of the convention's success. He requested to be dismissed from being a director, due to not wanting to be exposed to the convention's liability anymore. This request was granted.
:*Following his removal, Dan expressed his displeasure in a number of ways, engaging in a great deal of public criticism of the convention on Ontario Furries. These criticisms were seen as highly counterproductive, an attempt to erode public confidence in the convention, and evaporated a great deal of goodwill towards him.
:*However, in an attempted gesture of good faith, Dan was mentioned and thanked by name in the conbook for the 2010 convention for his contribution.
:*The relationship between Furnal Equinox and Ontario Furries (the community forum which Dan administrates) has been quite rocky over the past year, and has sometimes been severed altogether to be later restored. However, following the convention in April 2010, Furnal Equinox's subforum on Ontario Furries was deleted without warning. When it became clear that any sort of diplomacy or negotiations to restore the forum would not be successful, the two parties agreed to mutually sever relations.

:It should be noted that I can not attest for any previous research towards the convention Dan may have accomplished. --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 23:19, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

"Furnal Equinox was not created by Danskunk, nor was it created by Ontariofurries and was put together by a committe of people who met on Ontariofurries but that was the extent of it, anything added by or about Danskunk was added by him and are falsifications and lies put into his head by his own self."

The committee of people that met on [[Ontario Furries]] were all members of that web site at the time of their meeting; therefore, it would not be inaccurate to say they were Ontario Furries.

Claiming that I am lieing is slanderous. You should back up that claim, or qualify it by saying it's your opinion that they are lies.

Shane became involved the the project later than everyone else and was not involved in those early discussions and has no first hand experience on the events his claims are about.

--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 23:38, 18 July 2010

"He requested to be dismissed from being a director, due to not wanting to be exposed to the convention's liability anymore. This request was granted."

I did not make that request. I discussed it, but decided not to make the request. Had I done so, there would be no displeasure with the decision to remove me from being a director.

Quorum was not present at that meeting, making the decisions against the articles of incorporation. Others dismissed at that meeting were Sparrow and Danruk both of whom were involved in the convention planning prior to creation of the Toronto Furry Convention Board on Ontario Furries and were working with me and supporting my involvement. They were present at the first meetings with hotels, including the one chosen for the convention and instrumental to the success of the convention. None of us were present at this meeting to defend ourselves.

"His actions were perceived as progressively more erratic and independent of the direction the remainder of concom was taking (I refer to it as "we were moving left and he was moving right"), and the consensus was that his removal was in the best interests of the convention's success."

My experience was that being deliberately left out of planning discussions, not being given information I needed to be able to contribute, and being blamed for mistakes others made as a result of this lack of communication to me. My dismissal directly followed my criticism of this behaviour and recommendation that someone else act as chair.

"These criticisms were seen as highly counterproductive, an attempt to erode public confidence in the convention, and evaporated a great deal of goodwill towards him."

This criticism was considered a gesture of goodwill towards the success of the convention, and to prove my value to the success of the convention.

My predictions of wasted and mismanaged space, time, and resources proved to be correct durring the course of the convention. Had my recomendations been acted on, the convention, and it's members, in spite of my removal, would have saved a considerable amount of money. Instead, the recomendations were met with contempt and derision from the convention's remaining organizers.

The wholesale rejection of these recommendations, to me, showed that the success of the convention and service to the community was secondary to the organizers recieving personal recognition for their efforts.

Following the convention, I made public my complaint of unprofessional behaviour and personal prejudice towards me from staff both directly and through convention security after it was dismissed by co-chair, Pakesh De, as personal issues between me and the staff members and not the responsibility of the convention. Something I considered extremely irresponsible and unprofessional.

"It should be noted that I can not attest for any previous research towards the convention Dan may have accomplished."

That research was provided in the initial public discussions for the convention, and in information submitted to the committee after it was formed.

My original desire for contributing to this article was to add the details of Ontario Furries as the location of the forum discussions mentioned and Dan Skunk as the initiator of these discussions. I was, and continue to be the owner of Ontario Furries and it was in this capacity that I created this sub forum after making research into the feasibility of the project. I believe names of contributors and locations where discussions took place to be relevant to an article on the history of the convention. It is obvious that these discussions took place *somewhere* and were started by *someone*. The original organizing committee that created Furnal Equinox was formed through discussion on the Ontario Furries forum through a series of nominations and public voting presented on the forum

If there is contention to these facts, then I assert that this contention then is a relevant part of the history of the convention and that all sides of the contention deserve equal opportunity to present their claims so long as it is made known that these are claims and who is making the claims.

"Personally, I can honestly say that we would rather not see the section there, because it brings forth conflict that, from our evaluation, people would rather just avoid. Moreover, its presence undermines the credibility of both parties."

Wikifur is an encyclopedia which means it should contain factual information presented from a neutral point of view. I believe this means that if there is a dispute over facts, the nature of the dispute should be described in a way that does not attempt to promote either side of the dispute; Wikifurs's purpose is not to promote the credibility of individuals and organizations but inform the fandom of the facts related to them. Facts should not be deliberately omitted to improve the public image of individuals and groups.

In this spirit, I suggest Scani contribute to the proposed section to elaborate on Furnal Equinox's position on the disputed facts unless consensus can be agreed upon.

--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 05:39, 19 July 2010

:''Quorum was not present at that meeting, making the decisions against the articles of incorporation.''
:The assertion that the vote was invalid due to lack of quorum (i.e. a majority of members of the body) is incorrect. While the events in question took place a year ago and are slightly hazy on my part, at the absolute MINIMUM the remaining four directors and/or officers of the convention were present at the time to vote on the matter (which pertained to Dan's removal from concom, as well as from any further staff role with FE. To my recollection, at least five votes were cast; this would be a majority of the concom which consisted of nine members at the time. Moreover, in Ontario, a decision to amend governance would be governed by the corporation's bylaws, not the articles of incorporation. --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 12:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

::There were 8 committee members at the time. Quorum was decided to be 5 so that there would be a majority. Since there were only 4, then quorum was not reached.

::There could not be 5 votes with only 4 members present.

::I was never made aware of the articles of incorporation or that they were on the application for incorporation.

::I was never made aware of the existence of corporate bi-laws while a director of the corporation.

::I was present for an earlier meeting where it was decided by majority vote that quorum would be 5 to constitute a majority of the 8 members.

::These are only some examples of the unprofessional conduct of members of the committee. While I was a registered director of the corporation, my inquiries into the financial and corporate activities of the corporation were deliberately ignored and I was not informed of decisions being made that affected business of the corporation. My criticism of decisions behind made was strongly discouraged by the chairman ordering me to stop, by insults from committee and staff members, and by being ignored. I was informed by Blindsight that he was asserting his dominance and that I would need to change my behaviour if I wanted to be in the loop.

::--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 00:50, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

:::First of all - I said there were certainly at LEAST four votes, and recall specifically that there were at least five (considering Pak and I recall that Shiro was also present at the meeting). As Shane served in a secretarial role for concom meetings at the time, he would have the record thereof, but I am nonetheless confident that the decision represented the desires of the organization of a whole. While I can understand it being controversial if there had been dissent at the meeting, there was none. This is in line with the purpose of quorum from a moral standpoint (if not a legalistic one) where an unduly small number of people on a governing body do not control the decisions thereof.
:::''I was never made aware of the articles of incorporation or that they were on the application for incorporation.''
:::Your signature was required on the application document, and as far as I know, was obtained at a meeting in early June 2009. Presumably, you would have had the opportunity to review the completed application, which included first directors and "objects of the corporation" at any time while the application was in front of you.
:::I can not speak for these so-called "insults" from concom, but as far as I'm concerned, I did my best to interact with you in good faith, and despite my initial reservations re: your presence, you had every opportunity from me to demonstrate value to us - and I truly believed that because of the quantity of your social network you could be an asset to our operations. Obviously, this did not prove to be the case, and the concom's decision reflected that after several months of working with you.
:::The point I'm trying to make in all of this really has to come down to the group dynamics that worked themselves out. When we first came together, and one of the concerns was coherency. Bringing people together is one thing, but to actually develop some common goals and common purpose is another altogether. A group of people in the same room does not necessarily equal a team. And... regardless of how much work you DID accomplish in the leadup to this, it's another thing to work together, and that impression in your case just wasn't there. People weren't here to just follow your lead. Had you remained present, a lot more friction would have developed, and probably would have had a negative impact on the convention's success. As it turned out... there was a lot of friction anyway. --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 12:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

::::It was my oversight for not reading through the entire application. We seemed in a hurry to get it done so I just trusted I was already told what was in it.

::::We had a common goal. That was not an issue.

::::I never expected people to follow my lead or anyone else's lead. I expected them to work together as equals. That requires that people communicate their ideas with each other, accept criticism with each other, and make decisions together as a group. Some where not willing to do that, and that's what caused problems.

::::Regardless, my contributions should not be deleted from this article.

::::--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 12:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Additional Info: I was a helper to Blindsight at the time and was at the meetings as secreatary and I can attest, after discussions about why to remove Danskunk, the good and bad things he has done for the convention. He was voted out, with Quaorum with a unanimous vote to remove him from the con period.

I may even still have the records as they were transcribed and sent to the list and FE forums that we have of our own.

If Danskunk demands all facts and things should be allowed, then he should freely allow all the "facts" about himself on his wikifur page that pertain to the community and fandom.

Danskunks "Research" was checked out by me and took less then 5 minutes with a quick "wikifur" search, where all his information and research was from.
-Shane Nicholson(WolfMist)

:I accept all facts to be included in this article; any facts that are in dispute should be clearly described as so.

:My research took place over many months of travelling to Toronto to look at possible venues, through discussions with members of the community interested in helping, interviews with people who were directors at other successful conventions, some of it was collected from wikifur, but it was also re-organized to better serve our needs. I also brought observations from many years of attending conventions.

:Shane was not involved in this reasearch.

:--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 01:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

It's quite evident that we're not going to reach a consensus on this. Could we start working on editing the proposed section to include what information we all want to provide there?

--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 01:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

:Primarily speaking, the parties involved here are FE and you. I'd honestly be more comfortable seeking the opinions of neutral parties if possible, to objectively assess what the value of what you're proposing is - as neither of us will be able to do that. Will this controversy, namely, be important five years down the line?
:Re: the section that was recently added listing 'founding members' - a few of the names asked to withdraw their involvement quite early, and they may object to their appearance here in this article. The list also fails to acknowledge individuals that came on board after founding whose contribution nonetheless played an instrumental role in the convention's success... and I honestly feel they should not be trivialized (people like Morgan, Arrowroot, etc.)
:So I'm not sure if the section as it currently stands is appropriate, but if others say it should, alphabetical would be more appropriate. Perhaps the information is better classified elsewhere, but I'll comment more on that tomorrow. --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 03:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
::I've made it alphabetical. I didn't know about later joining members. Perhaps we should keep the current list, though rewrite the lead-in to say original founding members and then have a separate sentence listing those that joined in after the fact? They should certainly be recognized.

::And if any of the people listed do not wish their name to be associated with Furnal Equinox, then they just have to speak with Greenreaper and he will take them off and make sure they stay off of the list. [[User:Silver seren|Silver]][[User talk:Silver seren|seren]][[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]] 03:39, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

:::My suggestion would be that if needed, the relevant information be placed in a 'current' and 'former' section in the article (perhaps as a two-column table) - or at least other titles that represent those who are still working on the convention and those who have moved on to other projects. There should be no particular stigma associated with the latter. Also, ref. proposed changes below (you can always refer back to previous edits for previous versions) --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 11:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

::::I don't believe a current and former section is necessary. There is already an origins section there which is appropriate to list the original organizers in, describe their contributions, and when and why they left.

::::I sincerly appreciate you acknowledging that the discussions began on Ontario Furries, Scani. If there is consensus on that fact, then I believe it can stand in the origins section where I originally placed it as it is most relevant to that topic. I would also like it stated that I started the conversation there. Another contributer has been contesting both though so it may only be able to stand as a contested fact, but it can be stated the we both support it.

::::I don't believe a description of my removal should be in an Ontario Furries section as it is not relevant to Ontario Furries, but to myself only. My criticism should also not be included there as it was my personal opinion--not that of Ontario Furries.

::::I think we could put it the description of my and Ontario Furries's involvement in the origins section as it is most relevant there. I don't believe either are important enough to warrant their own headlines.

::::I disagree with saying there was a lack of shared direction, as there was a shared direction: producing a convention, a goal which all parties made contributions critical to it's success. The only disagrement was over details of how to accomplish those goals and responsibilities of individual members. I may wish to describe what those were.

::::I also disagree with saying there was a conflict between me and the rest of the concom because that was not true. I had disagreements with only half of the concom. I'd also like it stated that everyone that supported my inclusion was also removed.

::::I'd like to add my own perception of my criticism's as I saw them quite differently.

::::I contest that there was no warning, as I made repeated requests of FE to change their behaviour and would like to add my own assesment of why they were removed.

::::I'll get to adding my revisions later.

::::--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 13:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

:::Scani, as long as there is someone that feels the information to be valuable, there is no reason it can not be included. Other parties are free to contribute their knowledge to the article as well, as this is a colaborative effort but no one should be censoring other people's contributions based on their assesment of how valuable they are. Readers should be given the opportunity to have as much information as possible and decide for themselves what is or is not valuable to them.

:::Whether or not someone wishes to be included in the article or not is irrelevant. Deliberately presenting false information, or omitting information for the purpose of manipulating public opinion for any reason is dishonest and against the spirit of wikifur as being a place to present factual information from a neutral perspective.

:::Making the list alphabetical sounds good to me. Thank you.

:::If someone does not want to be associated with Furnal Equinox, it should be added to the article that they do not wish to be associated with it, thusly satisfying their desire for disassociating without sacrificing the integrity of facts. However, I think stating that they resigned, should be enough to indicate their lack of support.

:::--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 12:33, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

== Relationship with Ontario Furries (proposed) ==

Discussion for what became Furnal Equinox originally took place on the [[Ontario Furries]] forum, operated by [[Dan Skunk]]. Though Dan was originally involved in planning discussions, he was removed from the Furnal Equinox organizing committee and board of directors in July 2009 due to lack of shared direction and conflicts between him and the remainder of concom.

Many of Furnal Equinox's concom members have taken the stance that Dan's publicly posted and unsolicited criticisms since his removal have been disproportionately critical of the con and its staff, and negatively affected its reputation. Dan has claimed that his removal was unjustified, and that he has been subjected to negative treatment and insults by other staff members. Both claims are disputed by the other party.

The relationship between members of Furnal Equinox's convention committee and Dan has remained strained, culminating in the removal of Furnal Equinox's subforum and the banning of a number of committee members without warning in April 2010. Currently, Furnal Equinox and Ontario Furries have no formal connections.

Propose addtions to Origins instead of Relationship with Ontario Furries section.

I've been researching more details, so much of the Ontario Furries discussion is redundant.

--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 12:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

== Origins ==

[[Dan Skunk]] was removed from the Furnal Equinox organizing committee and board of directors in July 2009 over disagreements with some of the other committee members. [[M-So]] and [[Danruk]] were also removed on this date.

:[[Dan Skunk]] contests the decision as quorum was not present at this meeting and none of the people removed were given an opportunity to be present to defend themselves. He claims the dismissals were politically motivated because he expressed a lack of confidence in [[Pakesh De]] chairship immediately prior to being removed and that the others removed were friends of his.

:[[Scani]] claims [[Dan Skunk]] was removed over conflicts with other members of the concom and a lack of shared direction and that the decision represented the desires of the organization as a whole.

==Relationship with Ontario Furries==

[[Furnal Equinox]], along with members of the concom, [[Pakesh De]], [[Blindsight]], [[Shane]], [[Chris]] were banned from discussions on [[Ontario Furries]] in April 2010 for repeated insulting and defamitory comments.
:[[Scani]] claims it was without warning.
:Many of Furnal Equinox's concom members have taken the stance that Dan's publicly posted and unsolicited criticisms since his removal have been disproportionately critical of the con and its staff, and negatively affected its reputation.

==Request for Intervention==

This situation has become absolutely ridiculous, and I'm not satisfied with it whatsoever. The changes made by Dan to the article over the past couple of years have resulted in a significant decrease in quality in the article, not to mention a significant shift away from a neutral point of view. The changes that were made can only be described as "self-aggrandizing" and disproportionate to the remainder of the article.

Is it possible for both parties to lay off editing and that another party come in to perhaps arbitrate this issue? This is the continued manifestation of a conflict between Dan and Furnal Equinox - and I really don't feel it's fair for Dan to continue to edit the article unilaterally and play up his importance (just as it wouldn't be fair for us to do likewise). --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 20:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

:I haven't been following this situation that closely but I will offer a couple of observations:
:#If someone is posting information they claim to be true and others dispute it, then one side or the other needs to provide references to back up their claims. If neither side is able to do so, then it reverts to the level of hearsay, and we have to settle for something like "So-and-so claims X but others have disputed this." Also note that any allegedly deleted websites may in fact be preserved at sites such as [http://www.archive.org/web/web.php The Internet Wayback Machine] and those are generally as reliable as the original sites if the material still exists there.
:#We don't need a detailed play-by-play of who said what and what happened when. The only people who care about that level of detail are the handful of people who were directly involved. A summary description is good enough for the other 99% of us, and that's all we need on Wikifur. And it's quite possible that a summary description can be written in a manner that much of the content under dispute doesn't even matter at that level of detail. Try to imagine how you'd summarize something that happened a few years ago, then do it that way.
:I hope this helps. Oh, and here in the talk page, please remember to sign your posts with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). --[[User:Mwalimu|mwalimu]] 21:58, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

::I think a few notible points in the development and who was responsible for them is reasonable.

::If someone thinks they're important, and they're factual and referenced, there's no reason for them not to be included.

::It's a fair look at who contributed what in the lead up to the event. If someone happens to have made a lot of contributions, they'll of course be mentioned more. I any case, it's unfair and misleading to remove all reference to someone who made contributions.

::Arbitration is unnecessary, you have the opportunity to add anything that was left out.

::Please refrain from personal attacks, Scani. If you have something to contest, it can be removed as a fact.

::--Dan Skunk 22:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Furnal Equinox

2010-07-23T21:58:26Z

173.206.46.46: Undo revision 300655 by Scani (Talk) If you have something to contest, do so, but don't delete facts and insult other contributors.

Furnal Equinox

2010-07-22T12:38:49Z

173.206.46.46: /* Origins */

{{Infobox convention
|name = Furnal Equinox
|logo =
|caption =
| subject = Furry
| location = {{flagdiv|can|[[Wikipedia:Toronto|Toronto]], [[Wikipedia:Ontario|Ontario]], [[Wikipedia:Canada|Canada]]}}
| url = http://www.furnalequinox.com/
| status = Ongoing
| first = 6-7 March 2010
| final =
| organizer = Anthropomorphic Events of Ontario
| charity =
| resources = {{con resources}}
}}{{Furnal Equinox}}
'''Furnal Equinox''' is a furry [[convention]] held during the month of March in [[Wikipedia:Toronto|Toronto]], [[Wikipedia:Ontario|Ontario]], [[Wikipedia:Canada|Canada]].

Prior to Furnal Equinox's establishment, the largest gatherings in the [[Toronto Furry|Toronto area]] tended to be larger furmeets such as the [[Islington Furmeet]] and BBQs hosted by [[Potoroo]], which regularly attracted between 50 to 100 people.

It is arguable that the [[Islington Furmeet]] which was started by [[Ki Wind]] and [[Dan Skunk]] was the precursor to [[Furnal Equinox]] for it was it's success on June 14th, 2008, that inspired members of the community to think more seriously that a convention would be possible. The first [[Islington Furmeet]] brought together artists, dealers, fursuiters and had a dance, video and board games, lunch and dinner.

An Excerpt from [[Morgan]]'s report on the first Islington meet.

{{Quote|As at least some of you know, the dysfunctional social maniacs in the
Toronto Furry sorta-organization managed to actually co-operate long enough
to organize something big. As a group. With different people doing
different things.

I hadn't thought it was possible.

Of course it WAS only one day, and may have been a bit TOO optimistic, but
everything has to start somewhere.|Morgan|http://www.ontariofurries.ca/islingtonfurmeet/1/}}

Durring the lead up to [[Islington Furmeet]] 2 on November 6th, 2008, [[Shiro Tora]] started a discussion on the [[Toronto Furry]] mailing list about starting a convention:

{{Quote|I wonder if this was how Anthrocon got started?
North-rocon!
Tor-throcon!
TorFurCon!
someone book the website and the hotels!
drinking age of 19; they'll sweep across ther border in droves!|Shiro Tora|}}

This lead to a long discussion of what would be required to do this that included [[Dan Skunk]] choosing the name "CanFurEnce," [[Pyesetz the Dog]] designing a logo, and [[Dan Skunk]] nominating [[Shiro Tora]] as chair.

{{Quote|I wonder if this was how Anthrocon got started?
North-rocon!
Tor-throcon!
TorFurCon!
someone book the website and the hotels!
drinking age of 19; they'll sweep across ther border in droves!|Shiro Tora|http://mailman.catsden.net/mailman/listinfo/torfur}}

On Saturday, December 2nd, 2008, [[Dan Skunk]] created a board on [[Ontario Furries]] for people to discuss a convention in Toronto.

{{Quote|We had a lot of discussion about it here before, but we now have someone that has 5 thousand dollars for it and another that said a few thousand wouldn't be a problem.

Several people with experience running conventions have expressed interest in helping run it.

We spend a lot of last night discussing management, finances, and liability.

Looks like it's no longer a question of if it's going to happen, but how we're going to do it.

I've made a board on the web site we could use to collect ideas and help.

I'd really like to see us come together and support this since people are going to be putting a lot of effort into it for all of our benefit.|Dan Skunk|http://mailman.catsden.net/mailman/listinfo/torfur}}

The discussion hear lead to a committee being chosen by the members of [[Ontario Furries]] bringing together a number of interested individuals and the financial resources to develop a convention committee and the required organization.

The founding organizing committee consisted of [[Aaeden]], [[Benjamin]], [[Blindsight]], [[Danruk]], [[Dan Skunk]], [[Ki Wind]], [[Pakesh De]], [[Potoroo]], [[Scani]], [[Shiro Tora]], and [[Sparrow]].

The name Furnal Equinox was conceived by [[ShiroTora]] and plays upon the convention's placement in March during the beginning of spring (the vernal equinox).<ref>''[http://www.furnalequinox.com/About-Us About Us]'', Furnal Equinox website (accessed 14 July 2010)</ref>

[[Dan Skunk]] concieved the idea of having a small convention in 2010, before the planned 3 day convention in 2011.

Furnal Equinox was formally announced to the world on July 1 (Canada Day), 2009.<ref>''[http://www.furnalequinox.com/FAQ FAQ], Furnal Equinox website (accessed 14 July 2010)</ref>

Furnal Equinox was promoted in its first year as "Toronto's First Furry Convention".

== History ==

'''[[Furnal Equinox 2010]]''' took place on March 6-7, 2010 at the Doubletree by Hilton Toronto Airport, attracting 330 attendees - the most for any furry event in Canada up to that point. The guests of honour were [[Heather Bruton]] and [[BushyCat]], and the convention celebrated the theme of "Furry Fun and Games".

'''[[Furnal Equinox 2011]]''' will occur on March 11-13, 2011, returning to the Doubletree Toronto Airport. The Guests of Honour will be [[FirestormSix]] and [[ZEN]], and the convention's theme will be "Wild Magic".

== Staff ==

[[Pakesh De]] and [[Blindsight]] are the current co-chairs of Furnal Equinox.

Others currently involved include [[Aaeden Aranor]], [[Arctic]] (security), [[Arinmal]], [[Arrowroot]] (dealers), [[Kimba]], [[Scani]] (publicity/business), and [[Shane]] (registration/volunteers).

Furnal Equinox is operated by Anthropomorphic Events of Ontario, a not-for-profit corporation in the Province of Ontario.

==References==
<references />

==External links==
*[http://www.furnalequinox.com/ Furnal Equinox website]
*[http://forums.furnalequinox.com/ Furnal Equinox forum]
*[http://community.livejournal.com/furnalequinox/ Furnal Equinox on LiveJournal]
*[http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=165793707559 Furnal Equinox on Facebook]
*[http://twitter.com/furnalequinox Furnal Equinox on Twitter]
* {{con resources}}

{{Conventions}}

[[Category:Conventions]]
[[Category:Toronto]]
[[Category:2010 births]]

Talk:Furnal Equinox

2010-07-21T13:45:51Z

173.206.46.46:

Talk:Furnal Equinox

2010-07-21T12:34:29Z

173.206.46.46:

Furnal Equinox was not created by Danskunk, nor was it created by Ontariofurries and was put together by a committe of people who met on Ontariofurries but that was the extent of it, anything added by or about Danskunk was added by him and are falsifications and lies put into his head by his own self.
:If Dan Skunk was not the founder, can you please provide online evidence of who the real founder is, so this matter can be put to rest? [[User:Silver seren|Silver]][[User talk:Silver seren|seren]][[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]] 17:43, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Members of the committe and con as of First Con in 2010.

Co-Chairs: Blindsight_Wolf
Pakesh_De
Committe: Scani
Shane
Crassadon
ArrowRoot
ArcticFox
Morgan(now Deceased)

There was other people who were involved in the beginning months, they either dropped out, were removed or voted out. As the committee developed and became the current group.

Registered corporate members are: Blindsight_wolf, Scani, Pakesh_de, Shane, Crassadon.
These are people who are registered Directors of the convention. Legally registered on the NPO.

The list of members and concom is available at www.furnalequinox.com and also the original page creator is Scani, so you can also speak with him.

Shane.

: While the list of concom members is not available on Furnal Equinox's website, I can attest that the information Shane has provided is correct for the 2010 concom and can be sourced from our conbook for that year. To reiterate, the claims being made in the article do not reflect Furnal Equinox's stance. I'm open to any questions if desired, though. --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 13:28, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

A lot of the source information was removed in 2009 as I removed the Toronto Furry Convention forum from Ontario Furries when it fell into dissuse and hadn't yet created a system to archive deleted posts.

There are a number of people that can corroborate my claim of starting Furnal Equinox, and I could cite some of the early conversations I had with people about the convention from the summer of 2008 but it will be impossible to present anything that can not be contested by Furnal Equinox.

I don't want to be associated with Furnal Equinox and I don't think they want to be associated with me, but I believe the community deserves to have an accurate history of events and that people should be credited for their contributions to the furry community.

As there is likely not going to be a consensus in this situation, the only solution I can see is that we have a section here describing controversy over certain facts and present the differing viewpoints people have on it.

--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 16:55, 18 July 2010

:It's... very unfortunate that a dispute between Dan and FE has been brought into the public eye once again. I don't wish to bring arguments with Dan onto WikiFur, because this is not its purpose for the articles here to be a battleground for the conflicts themselves... only how they're reported, if seen as notable enough to be.
:First of all, I've cleared the "Controversy" section from the article. However, in the interests of good faith, I've copied that section to the bottom of the talk page with two understandings: first, perhaps we can establish a consensus among not just Dan and FE but with the mediation of other WikiFur editors on whether it is needed. Secondly, if there is a consensus that it IS needed, then that section can be collectively edited by not just the stakeholders, but by all in a manner that is satisfactory to all. Personally, I can honestly say that we would rather not see the section there, because it brings forth conflict that, from our evaluation, people would rather just avoid. Moreover, its presence undermines the credibility of both parties.
:However, in the interests of disclosure, this is my understanding of the events that have taken place between Dan and FE (perhaps from a more FE-ish perspective)

:*A Toronto Furry Convention board existed on Ontario Furries from at least late 2008. A number of the current concom members posted on this forum, where a number of ideas were discussed (though no firm decisions re: the planning of the convention as it is taking place now took place as a result - i.e. we did not enter into any contracts with any party, and as the name will suggest, the name Furnal Equinox was not yet decided at this point.)
:*After several months of discussion, a private mailing list was created with the involvement of all those who expressed an interest in serving on the convention committee; their first action was to elect Pakesh De as convention chairman and subsequent decisions such as name, date, and venue were made through here.
:*Anthropomorphic Events of Ontario (AEO) was incorporated as a Ontario corporation without share capital on June 11, 2009. Dan's name was included in the application for incorporation as an initial director.
:*At a meeting of the convention committee on July 20, 2009, Dan was dismissed from Furnal Equinox's concom by a unanimous vote. His actions were perceived as progressively more erratic and independent of the direction the remainder of concom was taking (I refer to it as "we were moving left and he was moving right"), and the consensus was that his removal was in the best interests of the convention's success. He requested to be dismissed from being a director, due to not wanting to be exposed to the convention's liability anymore. This request was granted.
:*Following his removal, Dan expressed his displeasure in a number of ways, engaging in a great deal of public criticism of the convention on Ontario Furries. These criticisms were seen as highly counterproductive, an attempt to erode public confidence in the convention, and evaporated a great deal of goodwill towards him.
:*However, in an attempted gesture of good faith, Dan was mentioned and thanked by name in the conbook for the 2010 convention for his contribution.
:*The relationship between Furnal Equinox and Ontario Furries (the community forum which Dan administrates) has been quite rocky over the past year, and has sometimes been severed altogether to be later restored. However, following the convention in April 2010, Furnal Equinox's subforum on Ontario Furries was deleted without warning. When it became clear that any sort of diplomacy or negotiations to restore the forum would not be successful, the two parties agreed to mutually sever relations.

:It should be noted that I can not attest for any previous research towards the convention Dan may have accomplished. --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 23:19, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

"Furnal Equinox was not created by Danskunk, nor was it created by Ontariofurries and was put together by a committe of people who met on Ontariofurries but that was the extent of it, anything added by or about Danskunk was added by him and are falsifications and lies put into his head by his own self."

The committee of people that met on [[Ontario Furries]] were all members of that web site at the time of their meeting; therefore, it would not be inaccurate to say they were Ontario Furries.

Claiming that I am lieing is slanderous. You should back up that claim, or qualify it by saying it's your opinion that they are lies.

Shane became involved the the project later than everyone else and was not involved in those early discussions and has no first hand experience on the events his claims are about.

--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 23:38, 18 July 2010

"He requested to be dismissed from being a director, due to not wanting to be exposed to the convention's liability anymore. This request was granted."

I did not make that request. I discussed it, but decided not to make the request. Had I done so, there would be no displeasure with the decision to remove me from being a director.

Quorum was not present at that meeting, making the decisions against the articles of incorporation. Others dismissed at that meeting were Sparrow and Danruk both of whom were involved in the convention planning prior to creation of the Toronto Furry Convention Board on Ontario Furries and were working with me and supporting my involvement. They were present at the first meetings with hotels, including the one chosen for the convention and instrumental to the success of the convention. None of us were present at this meeting to defend ourselves.

"His actions were perceived as progressively more erratic and independent of the direction the remainder of concom was taking (I refer to it as "we were moving left and he was moving right"), and the consensus was that his removal was in the best interests of the convention's success."

My experience was that being deliberately left out of planning discussions, not being given information I needed to be able to contribute, and being blamed for mistakes others made as a result of this lack of communication to me. My dismissal directly followed my criticism of this behaviour and recommendation that someone else act as chair.

"These criticisms were seen as highly counterproductive, an attempt to erode public confidence in the convention, and evaporated a great deal of goodwill towards him."

This criticism was considered a gesture of goodwill towards the success of the convention, and to prove my value to the success of the convention.

My predictions of wasted and mismanaged space, time, and resources proved to be correct durring the course of the convention. Had my recomendations been acted on, the convention, and it's members, in spite of my removal, would have saved a considerable amount of money. Instead, the recomendations were met with contempt and derision from the convention's remaining organizers.

The wholesale rejection of these recommendations, to me, showed that the success of the convention and service to the community was secondary to the organizers recieving personal recognition for their efforts.

Following the convention, I made public my complaint of unprofessional behaviour and personal prejudice towards me from staff both directly and through convention security after it was dismissed by co-chair, Pakesh De, as personal issues between me and the staff members and not the responsibility of the convention. Something I considered extremely irresponsible and unprofessional.

"It should be noted that I can not attest for any previous research towards the convention Dan may have accomplished."

That research was provided in the initial public discussions for the convention, and in information submitted to the committee after it was formed.

My original desire for contributing to this article was to add the details of Ontario Furries as the location of the forum discussions mentioned and Dan Skunk as the initiator of these discussions. I was, and continue to be the owner of Ontario Furries and it was in this capacity that I created this sub forum after making research into the feasibility of the project. I believe names of contributors and locations where discussions took place to be relevant to an article on the history of the convention. It is obvious that these discussions took place *somewhere* and were started by *someone*. The original organizing committee that created Furnal Equinox was formed through discussion on the Ontario Furries forum through a series of nominations and public voting presented on the forum

If there is contention to these facts, then I assert that this contention then is a relevant part of the history of the convention and that all sides of the contention deserve equal opportunity to present their claims so long as it is made known that these are claims and who is making the claims.

"Personally, I can honestly say that we would rather not see the section there, because it brings forth conflict that, from our evaluation, people would rather just avoid. Moreover, its presence undermines the credibility of both parties."

Wikifur is an encyclopedia which means it should contain factual information presented from a neutral point of view. I believe this means that if there is a dispute over facts, the nature of the dispute should be described in a way that does not attempt to promote either side of the dispute; Wikifurs's purpose is not to promote the credibility of individuals and organizations but inform the fandom of the facts related to them. Facts should not be deliberately omitted to improve the public image of individuals and groups.

In this spirit, I suggest Scani contribute to the proposed section to elaborate on Furnal Equinox's position on the disputed facts unless consensus can be agreed upon.

--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 05:39, 19 July 2010

:''Quorum was not present at that meeting, making the decisions against the articles of incorporation.''
:The assertion that the vote was invalid due to lack of quorum (i.e. a majority of members of the body) is incorrect. While the events in question took place a year ago and are slightly hazy on my part, at the absolute MINIMUM the remaining four directors and/or officers of the convention were present at the time to vote on the matter (which pertained to Dan's removal from concom, as well as from any further staff role with FE. To my recollection, at least five votes were cast; this would be a majority of the concom which consisted of nine members at the time. Moreover, in Ontario, a decision to amend governance would be governed by the corporation's bylaws, not the articles of incorporation. --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 12:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

::There were 8 committee members at the time. Quorum was decided to be 5 so that there would be a majority. Since there were only 4, then quorum was not reached.

::There could not be 5 votes with only 4 members present.

::I was never made aware of the articles of incorporation or that they were on the application for incorporation.

::I was never made aware of the existence of corporate bi-laws while a director of the corporation.

::I was present for an earlier meeting where it was decided by majority vote that quorum would be 5 to constitute a majority of the 8 members.

::These are only some examples of the unprofessional conduct of members of the committee. While I was a registered director of the corporation, my inquiries into the financial and corporate activities of the corporation were deliberately ignored and I was not informed of decisions being made that affected business of the corporation. My criticism of decisions behind made was strongly discouraged by the chairman ordering me to stop, by insults from committee and staff members, and by being ignored. I was informed by Blindsight that he was asserting his dominance and that I would need to change my behaviour if I wanted to be in the loop.

::--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 00:50, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

:::First of all - I said there were certainly at LEAST four votes, and recall specifically that there were at least five (considering Pak and I recall that Shiro was also present at the meeting). As Shane served in a secretarial role for concom meetings at the time, he would have the record thereof, but I am nonetheless confident that the decision represented the desires of the organization of a whole. While I can understand it being controversial if there had been dissent at the meeting, there was none. This is in line with the purpose of quorum from a moral standpoint (if not a legalistic one) where an unduly small number of people on a governing body do not control the decisions thereof.
:::''I was never made aware of the articles of incorporation or that they were on the application for incorporation.''
:::Your signature was required on the application document, and as far as I know, was obtained at a meeting in early June 2009. Presumably, you would have had the opportunity to review the completed application, which included first directors and "objects of the corporation" at any time while the application was in front of you.
:::I can not speak for these so-called "insults" from concom, but as far as I'm concerned, I did my best to interact with you in good faith, and despite my initial reservations re: your presence, you had every opportunity from me to demonstrate value to us - and I truly believed that because of the quantity of your social network you could be an asset to our operations. Obviously, this did not prove to be the case, and the concom's decision reflected that after several months of working with you.
:::The point I'm trying to make in all of this really has to come down to the group dynamics that worked themselves out. When we first came together, and one of the concerns was coherency. Bringing people together is one thing, but to actually develop some common goals and common purpose is another altogether. A group of people in the same room does not necessarily equal a team. And... regardless of how much work you DID accomplish in the leadup to this, it's another thing to work together, and that impression in your case just wasn't there. People weren't here to just follow your lead. Had you remained present, a lot more friction would have developed, and probably would have had a negative impact on the convention's success. As it turned out... there was a lot of friction anyway. --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 12:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

::::It was my oversight for not reading through the entire application. We seemed in a hurry to get it done so I just trusted I was already told what was in it.

::::We had a common goal. That was not an issue.

::::I never expected people to follow my lead or anyone else's lead. I expected them to work together as equals. That requires that people communicate their ideas with each other, accept criticism with each other, and make decisions together as a group. Some where not willing to do that, and that's what caused problems.

::::Regardless, my contributions should not be deleted from this article.

::::--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 12:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Additional Info: I was a helper to Blindsight at the time and was at the meetings as secreatary and I can attest, after discussions about why to remove Danskunk, the good and bad things he has done for the convention. He was voted out, with Quaorum with a unanimous vote to remove him from the con period.

I may even still have the records as they were transcribed and sent to the list and FE forums that we have of our own.

If Danskunk demands all facts and things should be allowed, then he should freely allow all the "facts" about himself on his wikifur page that pertain to the community and fandom.

Danskunks "Research" was checked out by me and took less then 5 minutes with a quick "wikifur" search, where all his information and research was from.
-Shane Nicholson(WolfMist)

:I accept all facts to be included in this article; any facts that are in dispute should be clearly described as so.

:My research took place over many months of travelling to Toronto to look at possible venues, through discussions with members of the community interested in helping, interviews with people who were directors at other successful conventions, some of it was collected from wikifur, but it was also re-organized to better serve our needs. I also brought observations from many years of attending conventions.

:Shane was not involved in this reasearch.

:--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 01:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

It's quite evident that we're not going to reach a consensus on this. Could we start working on editing the proposed section to include what information we all want to provide there?

--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 01:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

:Primarily speaking, the parties involved here are FE and you. I'd honestly be more comfortable seeking the opinions of neutral parties if possible, to objectively assess what the value of what you're proposing is - as neither of us will be able to do that. Will this controversy, namely, be important five years down the line?
:Re: the section that was recently added listing 'founding members' - a few of the names asked to withdraw their involvement quite early, and they may object to their appearance here in this article. The list also fails to acknowledge individuals that came on board after founding whose contribution nonetheless played an instrumental role in the convention's success... and I honestly feel they should not be trivialized (people like Morgan, Arrowroot, etc.)
:So I'm not sure if the section as it currently stands is appropriate, but if others say it should, alphabetical would be more appropriate. Perhaps the information is better classified elsewhere, but I'll comment more on that tomorrow. --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 03:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
::I've made it alphabetical. I didn't know about later joining members. Perhaps we should keep the current list, though rewrite the lead-in to say original founding members and then have a separate sentence listing those that joined in after the fact? They should certainly be recognized.

::And if any of the people listed do not wish their name to be associated with Furnal Equinox, then they just have to speak with Greenreaper and he will take them off and make sure they stay off of the list. [[User:Silver seren|Silver]][[User talk:Silver seren|seren]][[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]] 03:39, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

:::My suggestion would be that if needed, the relevant information be placed in a 'current' and 'former' section in the article (perhaps as a two-column table) - or at least other titles that represent those who are still working on the convention and those who have moved on to other projects. There should be no particular stigma associated with the latter. Also, ref. proposed changes below (you can always refer back to previous edits for previous versions) --[[User:Scani|Scani]] 11:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

:::Scani, as long as there is someone that feels the information to be valuable, there is no reason it can not be included. Other parties are free to contribute their knowledge to the article as well, as this is a colaborative effort but no one should be censoring other people's contributions based on their assesment of how valuable they are. Readers should be given the opportunity to have as much information as possible and decide for themselves what is or is not valuable to them.

:::Whether or not someone wishes to be included in the article or not is irrelevant. Deliberately presenting false information, or omitting information for the purpose of manipulating public opinion for any reason is dishonest and against the spirit of wikifur as being a place to present factual information from a neutral perspective.

:::Making the list alphabetical sounds good to me. Thank you.

:::If someone does not want to be associated with Furnal Equinox, it should be added to the article that they do not wish to be associated with it, thusly satisfying their desire for disassociating without sacrificing the integrity of facts. However, I think stating that they resigned, should be enough to indicate their lack of support.

:::--[[User:Dan Skunk|Dan Skunk]] 12:33, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

== Relationship with Ontario Furries (proposed) ==

Discussion for what became Furnal Equinox originally took place on the [[Ontario Furries]] forum, operated by [[Dan Skunk]]. Though Dan was originally involved in planning discussions, he was removed from the Furnal Equinox organizing committee and board of directors in July 2009 due to lack of shared direction and conflicts between him and the remainder of concom.

Many of Furnal Equinox's concom members have taken the stance that Dan's publicly posted and unsolicited criticisms since his removal have been disproportionately critical of the con and its staff, and negatively affected its reputation. Dan has claimed that his removal was unjustified, and that he has been subjected to negative treatment and insults by other staff members. Both claims are disputed by the other party.

The relationship between members of Furnal Equinox's convention committee and Dan has remained strained, culminating in the removal of Furnal Equinox's subforum and the banning of a number of committee members without warning in April 2010. Currently, Furnal Equinox and Ontario Furries have no formal connections.

Talk:Furnal Equinox

2010-07-20T12:57:00Z

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Talk:Furnal Equinox

2010-07-20T12:56:10Z

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Talk:Furnal Equinox

2010-07-20T01:09:52Z

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Talk:Furnal Equinox

2010-07-20T01:04:42Z

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