Talk:Eurofurence

Small print about the name issue: The term 'EuroFurence' and the typeface were created by me, the original logo in the Albedo typeface designed by Tes-Tui-H'ar. I stopped going to the con years ago, nowadays I prefer smaller, more personal furmeets. To keep the idea of EuroFurence alive, I believe that it is best to make it 'public domain', inviting anyone to hold one if they wish so. Therefore I specified that nobody may monopolize the name. As long as it's a con, it's in Europe and all furries can attend if they wish so, feel free to call it 'EuroFurence'. But don't count on my attendance. - Unci 14:58, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * Eurofurence e.V. is a registered organisation, and we hold the legal exclusive right to the name when it comes to the organisation and the stuff the organisation runs.


 * However, there's no legal problem naming anything unrelated to the organisation or its convention that way, including fonts.


 * So people, if you want to name your dog "Eurofurence" ... not a problem. But please name your convention differently :) Thanks.


 * --Cheetah 23:45, 13 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * Tes-Tui-H'ar, unci or anyone involved with the creation of EuroFurence have never given anyone, including the organisation Eurofurence e.V., the exclusive right to use the name. The organisation just stood in when nobody else was there to hold the con. No word is said about who will hold it in two, ten or twenty years ....
 * I agree that for clarity it would be a good idea to name events unrelated to Eurofurence e.V. differently (either entirely or EuroFurence east/west, north/south, spring/summer/autumn/winter or whatever you like), but legally I would see no problem with using the same name. Nobody can trademark (service mark, whatever - yet another question would be according to which country's legislation ....) something that has been in use previously by others for the same purpose.
 * Clarification regarding capitalization:
 * *EuroFurence = convention started 1995 by Tes-Tui-H'ar and unci
 * *Eurofurence e.V. = organisation currently holding the event
 * *eurofurence = typeface family designed for use at EuroFurence by unci
 * Not sure when the capital F was dropped, I guess that can be researched on the websites.
 * *fluff* - Unci 11:09, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, someone involved with the creation did not NEED to give us the exclusive right to use the name, because they never had it. You're confusing copyright with trademarks. (Urheberrecht vs. Namensrecht). Ask a lawyer. Your implications about names are not correct. Since the Eurofurence e.V. has been registered with the Vereinsregister, nobody has the right to use the name Eurofurence for anything that collides with the activities of the organisation any more. And even if that were not the case, you'd have a hard time convincing a judge that you still have any legitimate interest in the name of a construct that you've abandoned 10 years ago, and which has since then been carried on by precisely those people who later chose to officially register it.


 * And honestly, I don't think the situation is bad, because there objectively is no NEED for anyone to name anything "Eurofurence" other than trying to cause us a pain in the ass. And for obvious reasons, nobody likes people who're trying to be a pain in the ass, so for once, this kind of legislation is doing something good.


 * But that's just my opinion. I think we don't need to mention the name issue at all in the article, it's not why we founded the organisation (that was because of tax and liabiliy issues), and it's not hat important. I'm certainly not getting off on it. But at least the article should't claim anything factually wrong.


 * --Cheetah 12:00, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * There are two basis for ownership of a mark in trademark law. The first is "use", and the second is registration. In the cases where the second predominates, it is typical for the registration process to consider the first, and although first use is often important, it is typically linked to continued use. I believe that in the european community even a registered trademark becomes invalid after five years of non-use, although this may differ in national laws. If one group stops using the name and another group starts using it, the first group may lose any claim on it. Honestly, I think this is what has has happened.


 * If you wanted to say that it should be usable by everyone, you should be suggesting instead that it should not be trademarked. A trademark or service mark must not be generic, either in a common use or a geographical sense. There might be grounds for suggesting that the term is geographic, but I think that you would have a hard time doing so. "European Furry Conference" as a name would probably not be valid, but "Eurofurence" is a distinctive term (unless you wish to suggest that "furence" is generally accepted as a word meaning "furry conference" - again, possible given the existance of ConFurence, but again, I think you'd find it hard going). Even if it was not distinctive before, it has acquired such use through eleven conferences, the vast majority of which and the most recent of which appear to have been under the auspices of one organizational group.


 * Ultimately, the basis for a mark is to avoid confusion, which might result if people thought they were going to one con (or buying "Eurofurence videos", say) and were actually going to another. Do people generally associate the word Eurofurence with a specific product or brand - i.e. the Eurofurence convention hosted by Eurofurence e.V.? If so, in those juridstictions where common use is important, that will establish who owns the mark and has the rights to enforce its non-use, and in those that are not the use would be taken into account when considering the (continued) validity of the registration.


 * Speaking as an "outsider", this is the first I have ever heard of this debate, and it seems odd to me. In my mind (and I suspect the minds of most other people) "Eurofurence" (or even EuroFurence) is the name of one convention, the one that happens to be run by Eurofurence e.V.,not a generic term to cover "furry conferences that happen in Europe". People say "I'm going to Eurofurence" and they mean that they're going to a specific convention, not that they're going to a convention or furry meet somewhere in europe.


 * The use of the term "Eurofurence" for unrelated products like fonts is not really a concern, but I'd suggest that it's more than a little confusing to suggest that it should be used for furry meets. It would be better to choose another name which is unique. I would suggest EFCon (which could stand for European Furry Convention/Conference, but is made distinctive by its abbreviation) if it were not already used by other companies, but there must be some name that could be used.


 * Regarding the "in two, ten, or twenty years" comment . . . well, that depends on what Eurofurence e.V. does. If they continue to host a convention, they will continue to enjoy the exclusive right to use the name as an mark. If they do not, then it is likely that they will lose the rights to the name after a period of non-use. In that case, another group might come along later and use the name. I would hope that if that actually happened there would be some form of transfer agreement to make things clearer and avoid further confusion. :-) -- 14:46, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * Wheee! A long talk page, what joy! - Since the beginnings, the name and concept of "EuroFurence" are intended to be public domain, free to be used by anyone. (Frankly, we didn't give it much thought when preparing it, but it seems the most logical.) I'm not sure why anyone should want to change that now - I hope not to satisfy the egos of those who currently happen to hold it .... No, EuroFurence is not "owned" by anyone in particular, it belongs to all of us (the European furry community), and I think it's best to keep it that way.


 * Note that we are only talking about the theoretical case of two unrelated groups wanting to hold EuroFurence simultaneously (I hope not at exactly the same time, for those who want to attend both). Further assuming that every group holds its own event and both decide to name it "EuroFurence", I don't think that any one group would be successful in telling the other not to use it .... as both are some of the aforementioned all of us.


 * No, I won't waste my time and money with legal battles, I prefer to do something productive instead. I think it's not necessary to trademark EuroFurence in order to keep it free. I'm just pointing out that certain claims of certain groups may not necessarily be "legally watertight". - Unci 17:24, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * (I'm speaking for myself here, not for the Eurofurence organization. Also, IANAL.)


 * unci, again: there is no such thing as a public domain name. There is the concept of a generic term which cannot get protection, but in my opinion the name Eurofurence isn't a word commonly known by the public, so this certainly does not apply. There is no prior-art rule as in (US) patents for registered names, either. By founding the Eurofurence organization the name (unintentionally) got a certain degree of protection, which covers the goals of the organization. Yes, the organization can lose this right as well, if it does not use the name for a certain amount of time. And I'm sure the organization will do whatever it takes to protect these rights, as it has built up a lot of reputation among location providers such as the German Youth Hostel organization and of course within the European furry fandom. This involves a lot of responsibility, especially for a 5 digit amount of money, which is quite a burden for the organization. Letting others potentially ruin the reputation without defending the rights to the name probably puts the personal liability for the budget onto the shoulders of the board. In other words, the Eurofurence organization has no other choice than defending the name. And it will succeed keeping others from using it, I'm pretty sure.


 * While the concept nowadays is a completely different from EF4's at least (which was the first one I attended, and I bet it does not even have a remote similarity to EF3 besides the name), you are right in one regard: concepts are free to use. You cannot patent or copyright a mere concept (at least that's the case in Europe.) And absolutely nobody questions that you and Tes were the founders of the Eurofurence convention. But time goes on, Eurofurence has grown from a party among friends to a large event with almost 400 attendants. And this means an almost unbearable amount of work and responsibility for some very few individuals who work their ass off for giving Eurofurence's guests an excellent time. Please do not harm their motivation any further and stop spreading misinformation on the status of the name. - o'wolf 23:39, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Mumblings
A section about several people mumbling about how in recent years the German contingant has monopolised where the convention will be held (unsurprisingly in Germany) and threatened to boycott any EF that would move it from Germany (thus putting the convention at risk due to insufficent numbers)


 * There would need to be some soruces to cite in order to put such a section in the article. --Douglas Muth 13:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There has been some mumbling prior to EF9 (which was not held in Germany) about this, but I haven't heard any complaints about this since then. 90% of the core staff is German, and people usuall don't submit fitting locations outside of Germany, as far as I know, so that's why the con is held in Germany most of the time. --Conti|&#9993; 13:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Apparantly the current location is used simply because it is one of europe's largest hostel. I think the organisers have been reluctant to move to a full hotel and have the con American style but as stated by Cheetah in the EF12 con book, they are outgrowing the place and it's likely that EF12 will be the last con held in a youth hostel. --SlyCat 14:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to say, I'm with the Germans on this one. It does not make much sense to move a convention out of the area where your staff are and where the majority of your guests come from. It makes it less likely that the con will be good, for all concerned. If people in other countries want a con closer to them, the appropriate response is to increase the size of their country's furry contingent and organize their own, just as it was for different states in the USA. --GreenReaper(talk) 14:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It is however a bit like renaming Anthrocon to Albany Anthrocon again, despite it not being held in Albany any more.

The mumblings from mostly disillusioned folks that have dropped out of the con scene go along the "line" that it's no longer a "Euro"furence and more a "Germany"furence.

The reason the con hasn't moved is that when a different location has been discussed a large proportion of the German furs threaten to boycott the con making it no longer fiscally viable.


 * Not sure where you got that rumour from. The majority of the EF attendees are German, so if the con isn't held in Germany, a number of German furs simply are unable to afford the travel costs. I'm not saying that this is a good reason not to move the conlocation, just that I haven't heard of any German fur that said "If it's not in Germany, I'm not going" yet. --Conti|&#9993; 16:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Germany is part of Europe, no? As long as people from all across Europe go there, I don't see the problem with it being called Eurofurence. Midwest FurFest is always in Chicago, but you don't see the people in Ohio complaining that it should be called "Illinois FurFest" - maybe because they have their own Ohio Morphicon, like France has FranFurence. MFF gets a wider crowd, so it has a more encompassing name, just like Eurofurence. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

When is it in 2012?
Someone mentioned that Lakeside Furs should not overlap and it would be good to know for planning. Does anyone know? --Unci 13:38, 11 August 2011 (EDT)