Talk:International Yiff Center

I edited the link "Primal Snowpaw" as I was told to by help staff so it would redirect to me, the owner O.o so yeah, confused. Now it directs.. nowhere. Awesome. I will attempt to make the IYC page more bland and not highlight any of it's features so it conforms and attracts no interest, not that it's really any different than it was before this edit. It would be more helpful if moderators had their e-mail function turned on to assist newb errors so I don't have to rant here which is probably also, wrong.


 * Seriously tired of having the advertising crap posted up top. What it says, is what IYC is. A social venue. Where people meet. Where there are events. Where people have fun. It explains that. It explains it's traffic scores (no different to gaming server stats, which are apparently just fine) I could just say its a club, oh wait that'd be advertising. Seriously, there are other SL club pages (that are generally horrendously out of date) which are barely any different. I just happen across this and try to update and add some history but nah. If you all know IYC better than I, go right ahead because to be honest, it's obviously not worth the bother tryin to learn how to use this and attempting to keep it up to date when people are so anal and have no idea what I am writing about.


 * Make it sound less like an advertisement and you'll be fine. Equivamptalk 12:28, 28 August 2011 (EDT)


 * You make it sound less like an advertisement since you seem to know best. Tired of bothering and no idea how it got here to begin with, with my logo even which Im pretty sure I remember who I hand them out to. Go read all the other pages while you're at it, they are no different, and out of date. I'd sign it but don't know how. Whatever.


 * Add four tildes (~, connected, after your post) Spirou 12:39, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

No done yet
I haven't finished formatting the article yet, just FYI - Spirou 00:29, 30 August 2011 (EDT)


 * Thank you for your help with this. I had wanted to add some updated pics but fear I'll upload em somewhere wrong and be back where I started again.. har. :D Primal.Fuzz 01:33, 30 August 2011 (EDT)

"CIS-Normative Incident" edit conflicts
Could editors please avoid making assertions which are not based on the text? The club ownership may have "anti-transgendered views", but this does not appear to be supported by the quotes. What it does support is that they believe that non-transgendered and herm escorts do better at IYC. Similarly, terms like "smear-mouthing", "raging" and "effort to redirect guilt" are not constructive. Stick to objective facts and avoid making assertions about motives. The reader should decide what those are. This will make it easier to come to agreement on a version of the article. --GreenReaper(talk) 16:59, 20 July 2013 (EDT)


 * To be clear, it isnt the club ownership. Its select people within the managment. This came about when I heard the incident and how poorly it had been handled. I'm more than willing to work with people to provice a concise article educating people of the incident so long as it can be prevented from turning into the typical "You're Butthurt" or "So and So's just a bitch" type of thing much drama in the Fandom often devolves into.   I can only go off of the experiences me and mine have had, and as Logs are protected by Second Life's ToS I cant exactly make verbatum quotes from mine, or my friends logs.   Leaving much of this to 'The Vine'. --SashaPuppy


 * I'd rather this person be unable to post on it period since it's all fictional. She is purely attempting to cause drama IN SL and now out of it as well. Petty lies trying to smear an entire community aimed at making people happy, because she was refused a job? Lame selfish petty bullshit with no fact nor obviously any knowledge of IYC's history behind it at all. It's this type of selfish shit that makes the fur community look bad. A personal denial turning into the smearing of a whole community whose purpose is the happiness of 3500 people? Yar, buy a clue and stop listening to chinese whispers. Yes, I am pissed. Wouldn't you be if everytime one person got butt-hurt about something VALID they tried to smear a community freely given for all? --Primal.Fuzz


 * Side-note. Considering I and the General Manager are the only people capable of estate banning anyone, and none have been, yes you really need to do some fact finding. People are banned when they threaten the community. A threat includes, threatening to smear it, like you are attempting to do for them now. This, would make a ban valid. Are they banned yet? You do not have MY original skype documentation, that concluded in this persons refusal either. It is not my management's fault that trans/herm escorts do not do well at IYC, doesn't mean they aren't welcome there, it's simply in that ROLE they would not be ACTIVE members of staff. Would it have been more suitable for us to lie and give them a false reason? Seems lying is believable moreso than truth. --Primal.Fuzz


 * Beyond the information I have from the girl in question, I happen to know that not only do you have staff members giving this information to people in your club, but you have club goers and DJ's who also spread this so-called 'smear info'.  Right, so lets see the 'popufur' cliques band together to hammer down on 1 girl and her friends because they got caught with their pants down.  It doesnt matter what several people say as the entire incident is based around the poor attitude of /one/ IYC employee who felt the need to bash the non CIS-Gender community as a whole.  This poster is simply aiding spreading the word because I know what its like.  To simply target the girl in question and claim shes just being butthurt is pretty asinine.   While I was not given a hard copy of the logs from SL, I was on skype for the first half of the incident, and when a user states 'Trans women arent real women' thats not people saying 'you wont do well here'.  Thats an attack based on the non CIS girl. --SashaPuppy


 * There is no hammer down occuring. She was refused a job. That was the end of it from IYC's end. She is the one continuing this crusade and twisting it to fit. If I have to add each and every denial of escorts, dj's, security and other staff to the wiki it would be a very very long page indeed. She was denied because there is NOT a market for her in THAT role at IYC. I want to hire ACTIVE staff, at IYC. That is MY right to do. All you are aiding in doing, is spreading tales. Were I "targeting" the girl in question I would of added her name to the damn post wouldn't I? You were not in MY skype conversation which is where MY decision was made. And honestly, if one persons comment about "trans women not being real women" is the issue, perhaps they need to take it up with THAT person and stop slandering the entire community for it. Which is what this is considering it is NOT IYC's opinion nor stance. Take it elsewhere. --Primal.Fuzz


 * You say take it elsewhere. You say that your club and you do not share this one persons opinions and yet you protect this person and allow them to continue representing your club. This is the reason the belief is that IYC supports those PRO-CIS ideas. Because when you allow an employee to bash an entire group of people based on their gender non conformity, it reflects poorly on you.   I fight for my friend because I know what its like to be a victim of bigotry.    This girl was refused a proper application and job based on her RL gender issues, not her Secondlife gender.  The fact the girl offered voice/cam for those interested has never killed her work before, and yet somehow, that directly affects who she is on SL.   Your staff felt the need to trar her apart because shes trans irl.  /This/ is the issue at hand.  And so long as it appears you are activly protecting a biggot, then it will look like you share their views.  --SashaPuppy

She was also refused for inciting drama and speaking ill of current staff members before she was even scheduled for an interview. The person in question is known for drama, I don't particularly care what gender, orientation or otherwise she is. I'm not protecting a bigot, and your assumptions are rather bewildering considering, as with this case, you do not know what happens within my management. Your initial post states that "IYC denied her" BECAUSE she is transexual, and completely negated to mention the lack of a market for her in THAT role AT IYC, which is where she applied. IYC is not obliged to hire people it has no market for, and the constant badgering of the managers prior added to the decision. There is always more to the tale than what the butt-hurt person will tell. And yes, I refer to her as such because it's exactly how she has behaved since then. No one had an issue with HER personally, however, her actions now have probably changed that. I say take it elsewhere because it isn't IYC's stance and your badgering and beating a dead horse won't make me say it is, when it is not. It's just wasting everyones time and yet another example of someone incapable of being told no, and using some form of bigotry as the reason. --Primal.Fuzz

All im hearing is more excuses made by people who dont want to admit they screwed up. You say they spoke ill of current staff before being scheduled, yet this never happened. You say they are known for drama, again not factual. But it sounds like you claim to know what they do outside of sl. I speak to this girl often and your own accusations are laughable. You claim there is always more to the tale but clearly, you refuse to accept that perhaps you're wrong. I get you wanting to protect IYC's image. I get you wanting to shelter your friends, especially considering the person in question. But you are still protecting a biggot, and that isnt going to go away just because you make claims against the person involved in the incident starting up. All you're doing is showing how right i am by fervently fighting to protect and cover up biggotry and slam a girl whos now got less to do with this than we do. --SashaPuppy


 * Edit In - As to 'Someone incapable of being told no' I dont care if you hire them, or if you dont.  I am simply spreading the word of intollerance, considering you seek to protect a biggot.  Thats my only purpose.  Personally i think most of WHY this happened is just terribly silly.  But shes my friend and im going to back her. --SashaPuppy


 * You aren't right, in the slightest. Some of our best staff have been transgendered, so to say we do not welcome them is laughable. This whole scenario, is laughable. Her speaking through someone else, is laughable. There is NOTHING to protect her FROM. If my manager worded her comments poorly, in your opinion, speak to her about it. If it is bigotry to say, our market prefers this gender or that, then we are fucked aren't we? That would make us bigoted against all kinds of things we deny for, lack of experience, wrong genres, wrong timezones. Our decisions in staffing are based on nearly 5 years of experience with OUR communities tastes. If she did well elsewhere that's great, it doesn't mean she would here. This whole scenario is a waste of brain matter and again, as I said earlier, stems from someone incapable of being told no. Her ego alone was enough to say no for and if I had any inclination of the absolute tirade of drama she would cause, I would of simply burned the application before reading it. Defending a friend is honourable, but defending them blindly is laughable. --Primal.Fuzz


 * But it wasnt 'Our market perfers this' it was 'Trans women arent real women'. Thats all that matters. You cant make it better by trying to turn it into a battle of preference.  Direct, nasty things were said. Thats the meat of the problem. But again, I understand what you are fighting to protect, and i get why.  Its just a shame that you are too blind to accept that one of your staff is a bigot and deal with it so that everyone involved can move on.  All the girl wanted was a formal apology and the staff in questions employment terminated for their nasty attacks.  And look at where we are now, all because people refuse to handle the problem.     What im wondering now is how long are we going to dance in circles about this? --SashaPuppy


 * Take it up with her then if her words offended and don't assume you know what I have done personally in regards to it. Ive told you IYC's stance on the issue. Plain and simple. Each and every person on this planet including myself, you and your friend Im sure say shit that comes out poorly when BADGERED relentlessly. Tell "your friend" to go and deal with her personal issue with another human being like a damn adult, instead of trying to fuck over and SLANDER an entire community for her personal shit. I am done debating this circular bullshit. IYC's stance has been made clear. We welcome everyone and always have done. That will not change. --Primal.Fuzz


 * Right, Welcome Everyone. Including bigots.   You say you've made your stance clear and you have.  You fight and fight and insult and bemoan, but you refuse to do anything about the issue thats actually at hand.  Yeah, I have no problem fighting for my friend because I believe in doing whats right.  Its a shame more people dont feel the same way.   In a real place of buisness such behavior would be grounds for termination.  A company wouldnt spend how ever long trying to justify, reword, deflect or shift blame to avoid dealing with the hard facts.  IYC may try to welcome everyone, but in doing so, they let a bigot slip through the cracks.  Its become a problem and now its time to hope we can sweep it under the rug and try to just say its some angry girl trying to tear down the 'community'.  IYC is not 'the furry community'. It is one, of several establishments on SL.   SL is not the community as a whole.    You say deal with it like an adult?  People have tried, and instead of IYC's managment addressing the problem, they told others to 'deal with their lack of self acceptance' and to 'deal with being a herm'.  This is not how adults handle things.    I've dealt with your kind before as a trans activist.  We get people like your manager at pride events.  I will not rattle simply because you want to puff up and try and tear her down.  So long as the offending manager is still in your employ, anyone who knows what happened will know what IYC's stance truely is. --SashaPuppy


 * An irritated word after badgering does not a bigot make. Do your research, and I will respond to you properly. Continue with fiction and whispers and I shall not. My kind? Why how bigoted of you.. --Primal.Fuzz


 * So its come to this has it? Research? Your manager was asked 'why' she was not hired and she became vile.  This was before this alleged mudslinging that you so desperatly want to claim factored into it.   As for the fiction and whispers?  Do /your/ research, its not fiction.  Your kind? Yes. The people who are willing to stick their head in the sand and over look atrocity when its someone close to them, the people who do nothing when they see wrongs being done.  But im glad we can play this game.  Its very mature of you.   You're arguments are not working so now you're resulting to just trying to stir more drama. --SashaPuppy

Yes I will stick my head in the sand when Im talking to a brick wall. I am not obliged to hire anyone. She did not fit the venue due to there being no market. Allegations of words said are simply that, and I am unsure if I can't post my MANAGERS actual words, even with her permission, outside of there. I will find out, but you will clearly see HER words are nothing like the bigotry you have spent all this time blathering about. --Primal.Fuzz

Im sure. Im sure things will be nice and cleaned up little blurb. Because frankly at this point, all i see you trying to do is bury things. You want to discredit my friend, and do your best to make this all go away. And dont forget, this isnt about whether or not she was hired, nor what /you/ claim the market to bear. This is about what was said you cant change that. And good luck getting the poor girl to even talk to you long enough to ask her to help you discredit her. That'll go well im sure. But didnt you say you were done arguing in circles too? I mean, isnt this just pointless circular bullshit? --SashaPuppy


 * WikiFur is not intended to be a general forum for this issue. Please focus discussion on coming to an agreement on the text of the relevant section of this article. --GreenReaper(talk) 13:55, 21 July 2013 (EDT)


 * None of her text is relevent is my point. It's a personal drama and my community is being used as the platform for it. I am staring at the exact words right in front of me, with permission to post them, and spoken to Linden Labs about the issue. I am currently seeking legal advice in regards to their ToS because frankly, I've had enough of this bullshit. Nothing of the sort was said from IYC's side. I am at a loss as to how to cease this but I don't want this slanderous shit, on IYC's page. Period. I apologize for the wall of mess you are seeing. If you locked the page forever I'd not care at this point in time. --Primal.Fuzz


 * Have we really jumped the shark to 'legal action'? Jesus this is getting rediculous. Id say lock the page at this point as well because clearly, theres not going to be anything close to any kind of peaceful resolution, not when people refuse to deal with the facts. --SashaPuppy


 * Desiring to share the FACTS is why I am seeking advice so this shit can stop spamming the moderators. Perhaps you should be doing the same unless you have nothing substantial to share. Circles, seriously. --Primal.Fuzz


 * Im here doing the same. You want it to end here, it can end here. But im not going to sit and watch you slander my friends.  You have your version of the truth, I have mine.  Its always going to be 'that simple'.  Either we keep fighting it out like this, or we simply leave it alone.  But theres clearly not going to be an agree'd consensus on 'the facts' --SashaPuppy


 * After a conversation with the girl in question, I have been asked to cease my involvment. There are some claims I am not going to repeat here but she has asked me to simply let it go.  I will part saying this.  Put what you like here, but the truth will always find a way to the surface.  I drop this at the request of the girl in question. SashaPuppy 16:14, 21 July 2013 (EDT)


 * Statement by user SashaPuppy:


 * Statement by user Primal.Fuzz:


 * Better to resolve the situation here than leave two conflicting events with (confirmation needed) or (fact) tags plastered all over the article. - Spirou 02:17, 21 July 2013 (EDT)