Talk:Stalking Cat

I couldn't figure out how to do the wikipedia boiler plate -- ACGLKXH 02:29, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Why are we not using Wikipedia's article? Theirs is far more complete and established than this one ever could be, and at very least, we could some day get as good as theirs but not really any better. Redcard 21:02, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Hey, go for it. Just remember to use the "Wikipedia" template to give appropriate credit. Carl Fox 04:01, 12 Sep 2005 (UTC)

"Suicide"
Regarding the recent edits claiming Stalking Cat had committed suicide: I have been in contact with Stalking Cat's agent, who told me he (SC) is alive and well.--Higgs Raccoon 12:09, 7 November 2012 (EST)


 * Sadly, I just talked with his roomate because I too was attempting to get some sort of actual facts (vs speculations from a site that is known for spreading rumors and trolling). Sadly, he confirmed that Stalking Cat indeed has passed on.  No further details at this time so I did not want to modify the Wikipage just yet.  Very much at a loss --Kat the Leopardess 22:35 9 November 2012 (PST)


 * The preceding comment has been confirmed as being made by the stated user. --GreenReaper(talk) 03:08, 10 November 2012 (EST)


 * Stalking Cat is an user on the SoCalFurs' mailing list. No posts indicates such event, nor does any furry online sites do either at the current time. Only site this is even been discussed is the site Lulz.net, but there are just allegations, no URLs or references to back-up this assertion. His Wikipedia article has not being changed, and no there's no media news feed about it for the last seven days'


 * There's the Twitter "feed" who started this whole "Suicide story" by Martin Andersen (a screenshot of which can be found in the Lulz.net' post). An "Alisha Hardin" claims that she "read it online", but won't say were.


 * Kat, you are part of the SocalFurs' mailing lists. If this indeed happened, why haven't you posted it there? (the death of Beastcub's sister's boyfriend was discussed in length, as well as WhiskeyFoxtrot's aircraft crash). You posted on twitter on the 7th "Update from the same source I learned of the suicide rumor. Someone reached his agent and agent says he is alive". On the 8th, Salem Kapsaski ‏wrote to you on twitter: "@Catwoman69y2k Thank you Kat! So glad to hear it was just a rumour after all :D." But on the 9th, you write here that his "roommate" told you on the 9th that he died,... (?)


 * Tl:dr, A post on "lulz.net" claims that Stalking Cat committed Suicide, nobody can prove it, no official news - Spirou 04:47, 10 November 2012 (EST)


 * In response to Spirou, please see my first comment first beforehand. It would of explained to you that I'm not acting on the rumor. While the rumor first broke on Lulz, I have been checking with my peers who also know Stalking Cat first.  This is why it is not posted on SoCalFurs.  With Beastcub's sis, the death was very much an absolute (news stories, statements from Beastcub herself) and thus, it was perfectly fine for the news to be posted to my mailing list immediately.  As moderator for SoCalfurs, it would be very very stupid and of poor judgement to post about Stalking Cat at all until some truth comes out.  Sorry if you thought I was simply just going on Lulz's info (sorry, but for anyone who knows me, I get trolled on there alot and I take alot of their meanspirited cracks with a grain of salt). For redundancies sake, (since my original statement was obviously not read), Ill say it again. I did get word back from Stalking Cat's roomate in Tonopah.  He is not a man of many words so his response back to my inquiry was brief. It is as follows: "I'm sorry, but the worst did happen. I can't imagine why anyone would hack his website. I don't know of anyone he had ever offended.".  If you want a  screencap from my FA notes, than simply let me know and Ill do it. --Kat the Leopardess 09:43 10 November 2012 (PST)


 * I contacted him myself. He said he was "never [Stalking Cat's] housemate or roommate. I had only seen him a few times in the last few years." and that he didn't know who had reported his death. So we're still not much closer there. --GreenReaper(talk) 21:06, 10 November 2012 (EST)
 * Thanks. Honestly, I may have been incorrect in saying he is Stalking Cat's roomate.  I think "landlord" is the better term as that is what Stalking Cat referred to him as when him and I last spoke (back around 2010).  If he tells me "...the worst did happen." and then tells GreenReaper that he did not, than color me confused.  --Kat the Leopardess 11:31 11 November 2012 (PST)


 * Nevermind.Shortly after posting my 11:31am message to this talk page, I checked my FA notes again. He wrote me and mentioned his death was 11/5/2012 and was a suicide. Stalking Cat's shotgun was involved. Will provide contents of FA note at request, but again, he was very brief about it.  In addition, someone posted to our SoCalFurs board on thier own volition and linked to this journal entry by Brian Wear (a former roomate of Stalking Cat's): http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4017131/ . Maybe next week an obituary will show up whichcan be linked in the revised Stalking Cat wiki article.  --Kat the Leopardess 11:47 11 November 2012 (PST)


 * Sorry, I am not that savvy with editing here on Wiki but I will give this a shot. I called the Tonopah Sheriff Dept, and talked to the City Public Admin. I have confirmed that Stalking Cat has indeed passed away and is currently being held in the morgue. They are in contact with his brother Dave, as he is next of kin. I stand by my word on this. - OggyWolf


 * Two things: A) That information is privy to next to kin only, and B) If you just called them, let's say Friday, why is the body still in the Morgue if the death "occurred" on the fifth, as Lulz.net and Catwoman69y2k "indicated"? - Spirou 20:05, 11 November 2012 (EST)

Have a bit of compassion please, for your own sake when postings do come out. As I have stated elsewhere such as the SoCalFurs Forums and on my personal FA... I have family that is state/gov/city officials and I have gotten this confirm by calling who I needed to call. Necro Drone has also called and confirmed with the same admin. They are currently speaking with and dealing with his next of kin which would be Dave. I am barred from stating exact details on how/why due to my religious beliefs and I highly respect Stalking Cat so I will not break this. If you are a skeptical, call yourself. OggyWolf


 * I'm sure that, given time, the fact of a death with make its way into media reports. Until then, we as an established resource don't have clear enough references. -- Sine 20:46, 11 November 2012 (EST)


 * "I am barred from stating exact details on how/why due to my religious beliefs and I highly respect Stalking Cat so I will not break this." Sorry, that's not acceptable form of reference (kudos for the first person to try that line here on Wikifur), and as for compassion, you are the one divulging information that at this point is for family members only ("[He] is currently being held in the morgue"). Yes, highly respectful indeed - Spirou 20:54, 11 November 2012 (EST)


 * If you have a personal grievance with my religious beliefs as someone that follows traditional Native understanding, you can take that up with me personally not here. I am stating what I was told by the City Admin, nothing more. If it was information restricted to family I would not have been granted it. Inquiring about someone having pass once next of kin has been informed is allowed. Hell, contact me personally I'll hand you the number to call. OggyWolf


 * "If you have a personal grievance with my religious beliefs". Negative on that assumption. We do not accept the argument of "I cannot provide information on a certain subject based on my religious beliefs", and please, abstain from making threats on talk pages ("you can take that up with me personally"). We try to insure the veracity of any data added to article entries. "I talk to..." is not accepted as valid reference. valid reference would be like the line I'm currently pursuing of checking the obituaries on the city of Tonopah and surrounding counties' newspapers' obituaries - Spirou 21:12, 11 November 2012 (EST)

OK guys, hold up. Oggy, the issue appears to be that other editors don't know you, and we're hesitant to use "someone we don't know talked to someone else we don't know" as a firm reference to say "X died", especially given the other stuff above. We can say something like "X said that he contacted Y, who in turn said that Stalking Cat had died on Z". It seems like this would do for now unless and until we get a published source. --GreenReaper(talk) 21:13, 11 November 2012 (EST)


 * For what it's worth, Chilly also called up, and got the same information. --GreenReaper(talk) 21:27, 11 November 2012 (EST)


 * http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4018759/ NecroDone13 also called using the same number I did and spoke to the Admin. OggyWolf


 * It wasn't a threat, it was me attempting to state this is not a respectful discussion. GreenReaper, the Sheriff said the local papers are Tonopah Times and Bonanza. She didn't know if these were sources that had online content. I looked, I didn't see an obituary for either, let alone content for the Times at all. Admin said nothing was published currently. I assume that a death certificate will eventually be in public record. I really don't care what you guys believe or don't. I'm just trying to provide some of my friends closure. No, I'm not going to post the phone number to the Admin here but anyone can call the Sheriff of the region and confirm this currently. OggyWolf


 * Im sure this comforts no one but I can vouch for Oggy as someone I know. I admit that I asked her to update the info (instead of me doing it through my account) only because SHE talked to the Admin.  With a few assumptions being made about me, or at least my credibility, I didnt see any point in just relaying Oggy's info, lest that add to the conclusion-jumping.  So, if you want to blame me for encouraging the direct source to post (about the contact of authorities there in Tonopah), in the hopes it would keep the assumptions and drama-factor low... than by all means do so.  At this point, I am taken a bit aback to a bit of the behaviour but Ill recognize it for what it is.  It is not reasonable for me to continue harping over this in a time when I am in deep sorrow and mourning, so I shall leave this talk page be.  --Kat the Leopardess 21:22 11 November 2012 (PST)

Kat is indeed correct. I posted here because she asked me. I am attempting to get an Obit published in his home town, as well as state papers. This is proving slightly difficult as Stalking Cat's home town is quite tiny. News has been fast spreading over the internet of this, and it's starting to show up in places like http://gawker.com/5960112/world+famous-cat-man-dennis-avner-may-have-taken-his-own-life?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow I would like to remind people that having an obit published doesn't mean much. Anyone can have this done. I understand this is needed to provide some sort of news article for wiki however. OggyWolf


 * This article was also released: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/death-cat-man-probed-article-1.1201336?localLinksEnabled=false OggyWolf


 * Another from a Native Paper Source: http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2012/11/13/dennis-stalking-cat-avner-dead-at-54-145616 OggyWolf


 * Huffington Post calls the Sheriff and confirms that Stalking Cat has passed away. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13/dennis-avner-stalking-cat-dead-suicide_n_2122947.html OggyWolf


 * I have been in telephone contact with Stalking Cat's only biological brother Dave. He says that he will be updating this page as time permits. lironess for LynxMountainCat

OC Weekly Article on Stalking Cat with friend quotes: http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2012/11/dennis_avner_stalking_cat.php OggyWolf

Obits plus Wikipedia
Check 37 sites that deal with obituaries. None list Dennis Avner. On literally the last try, I just entered Dennis+Avner+death on Google. It listed one hit: His Wikipedia account. Date and place of death is listed now, but the reference links are the same FA account posts as the one's now on the Wikifur article. The edit was a few hours ago and anon - Spirou 22:07, 11 November 2012 (EST)

Lulz.net
And the initial rumor post on Lulz is active again: http://lulz.net/furi/res/2364241.html - Spirou 00:32, 12 November 2012 (EST)

LynxMountainCat
"Hello to all Furry members my name is Dave Avner Brother of Dennis (Stalking Cat) Avner, if you have any Questions about my Brother, then send me a message in here or FaceBook under Dave Avner. I would prefer you contacting me in FaceBook at this time Thanks. just send me a friend request and a Private Message in Facebook for now Thanks.

I will put information here latter But it is not fully determined about how my Brother died, it is still pending under police investigation, and the Toxicology report is still pending further investigation from the medical examiner. And anyone who has an assumption of my true Birth Name it is DAVE AVNER

NOT DAVID

I do not have a stupid biblical formal fucking name,

DAVE AVNER appears on my USA Passport, Drivers License, Social Security Card, .......Etc and not to insult anyones knowledge or intelligence but Inorder to up-tain a Passport of any sort each person has to submit a Valid Government State ID or Drivers License along with an original or Certified Birth Certificate.

''and people are raised like robots to assume what someones name is if it has some affiliation with another name, so if you assume then you make both yourself and the person you assume about look like an asshole at the same time. The best thing for anyone to do is................ Do not assume shit.............. you get it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll be in-touch with all of you Thank you for Loving and Admiring my Brother Stalking Cat.''" - Posted via Lionress

Gender?
Did Stalking Cat identify as male or female? I've heard mixed reports; friends of theirs said they were on estrogen, had breast implants, and were legally female, but most articles use male pronouns. - Posted 10:23 June 9 2013
 * Some results from an online search for keywords Stalking Cat and transgender:


 * http://www.bellenews.com/2012/11/13/entertainment/dennis-avner-stalking-cat-found-dead-in-a-possible-suicide/ states "Dennis Avner underwent a series of radical body modification procedures to make himself look like a female cat".
 * There are some relevant comments at http://perezhilton.com/2012-11-15-stalking-cat-dennis-avner-dead-at-54
 * http://news.softpedia.com/news/Stalking-Cat-Daniel-Avner-aka-Cat-Man-Found-Dead-in-Apparent-Suicide-307005.shtml
 * http://news.bme.com/2012/11/12/rip-stalking-cat/ "he transformed himself not just into a tiger, but a female tiger at that, blurring and exploring the gender line as much as the species line." -- Sine 23:06, 9 June 2013 (EDT)
 * I would be wary of a lot of the media reports that circulated around the time of Stalking Cat's death - most of them just seemed to be repeating each other, with no indication of what the primary source was.--Higgs Raccoon 05:17, 10 June 2013 (EDT)


 * A link to a podcast where several people interviewed mentioned Cat being transgender and taking female hormones (but still being referred to as a "he" strangely): https://soundcloud.com/andybotc/body-modification-documentary
 * A transgender person who was assigned male at birth can still use male pronouns for any number of reasons. If Cat used "he", that's all the article really needs; anything else is irrelevant. Equivamp - talk 18:20, 12 June 2013 (EDT)


 * An interesting podcast, but not as convincing as a first-hand account would be. How reliable is the first guy (Shannon Larratt?)? He seems to imply that Stalking Cat served in the military in Vietnam: "In addition, his experience in Vietnam was extremely unpleasant, and left him with post-traumatic stress disorder" (14:12) "ship young men off to war" (19:57). Does he mean the Vietnam War? If so, then I can't see how that would fit in with Stalking Cat's known history.
 * And the second guy strikes me as someone who worked with Stalking Cat a handful of time (three times, he says), but didn't really know him that well. ie not on a friendly, personal level, so his comments about "transforming his body into a female" might just be repeating gossip. He even says "Estrogen, growth hormones, I don't know what it was all about." (Maybe he was trying to inhibit facial hair growth around his implants rather than change genders.) Anyone else got any thoughts?--Higgs Raccoon 18:48, 12 June 2013 (EDT)
 * Again, does it matter? What we know:
 * Stalking Cat has never been known to state a preferred pronoun
 * Most media discussing him uses "he", "him", and "his" pronouns
 * Stalking Cat was not known to complain about this use
 * Even the people saying he was transgender said he used male pronouns


 * Why is anything else relevant? The man is dead. Let's not posthumously try to assume whether or not he is cisgender. Equivamp - talk 18:57, 12 June 2013 (EDT)


 * Well put, Equivamp. -- Sine 00:44, 13 June 2013 (EDT)

Name withheld
FS request to have his alias/handle whitewashed/blanked/changed ("he") is without merit. The interchange was public, posted here of a long time (why now?), and if it about privacy, there is no angle or merit for the demand to it as it reveals nothing (no RL name, no location, job, or any other damaging information).

Taking that privacy equation out, it wouldn't do anything to omit him from these pages, as it is plastered all over Google, so that angle doesn't hold. Being a public talk page, omission of data/names/locations on discussions therein that other editors have participated would render the points and comments hard to follow (who?, Where?, When?), specially an event so poignant and historical as this one.

In short, there is nothing right now that would legitimatize the request (privacy wise), so it would seem like nepotism to outside users (specially to those users that have tried to take their own names out of similar pages, many, many times, only to have the move reverted), and what do we do when person after person demand their names/aliases stricken from theses talk pages, specially those involved in events that have affected the fandom or it's users (specially in a wrong way) in the name of "Privacy"?.

If we are going for a vote, no. And, no, I wouldn't suggest it/rewrite it in a way that users (or critics) may not think that it's unfair censorship (e.g. [name withheld]), because it still comes out as favoritism. - Spirou 19:58, 22 September 2013 (EDT)


 * It was requested a long time ago but done now because, frankly, I missed the email while I was at MFF 2012 and only found it now while clearing out my inbox.


 * Here's the issue: Kat's comment tied a furry identity to that of the "landlord", whose real-life identity would be known to those in Tonopah and is a matter of public record. I think we have removed real-life information from talk pages in the past, especially when revealed without authorization by a third party. In this case, removing a fan name was less disruptive to the discussion than removing the whole landlord conversation, because their fandom identity was not critical - instead, it was that Kat knew someone who would be in a position to know key information.


 * I don't get what you mean by "plastered all over Google" - the only place his fan name is connected to that of Stalking Cat is here, and Google's cache of this page will soon be updated. Similarly, nepotism requires that you be related to the subject, which I am not. The only two people who mentioned his name were Kat (who forwarded the request for removal with her blessing) and myself, and the topic did not arise again, even within that thread. --GreenReaper(talk) 20:43, 22 September 2013 (EDT)


 * Woah, sorry!, I was just making the point against the deletion!. Belay my opinion on the subject, forget I expressed an opinion 0.O (it would have made a difference to offer all the additional information now included in this last response, as it does picture the whole situation quite differently)... - Spirou 22:12, 22 September 2013 (EDT)


 * Yes, I'm sorry, I should have made that information clearer in the edit summary. And opinions are fine! --GreenReaper(talk) 08:11, 23 September 2013 (EDT)