Talk:Jurann

Bidding history
i would ask that the references to the bidding history on furbid-sf be removed from this article, at least until after our internal investigation regarding the issue has been completed. i do not feel it is proper that this is being posted here when the full facts are unknown by the public at large. --Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur 02:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would say no. The information is posted elsewhere in publicly-available LiveJournal postings, and nothing is served by removing the information from WikiFur. An additional statement that Furbid-SF is investigating would be more appropriate, I should think, and once that investigation is complete you are welcome to add a link to wherever the conclusions are posted.DuncanDaHusky(talk) 03:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * i am sorry, i am forced to remove the access from the database under the user agreement: http://www.furbid.ws/cgi-bin/auction/help.pl?template=terms
 * Please refer to Article 6:
 * ''Privacy - We gather your information so that other people will have it on hand when they win your auction or you win their auction. Personal information is not sold or rented without your permission. Personal information sent to a user regarding a product bought or sold on the auction is not to be used for any other purpose, except for communication concerning the auction item. This also applies to any information which may be found on either the main auction site, or the Discussion Board.
 * As this information, and any interaction which you may participate in may have a long term effect on other users, and their accounts, this information will be stored permanently within our database. Upon creating an account on FurBid-SF, you waive any rights to have your personal information removed from the FurBid-SF database.''
 * at a later point i will add to the page what i can allow to be released.
 * --Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur 03:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is your site - but the facts of who made what bids are just that, facts. That article appears to refer to personal information - names, addresses, and phone numbers (which also happen to be facts) that are kept on file for sellers to contact buyers and vice versa rather than the bid history. We don't really care about his personal details stored on your site, because it's not relevant to the situation; none of us have access to it anyway.
 * As for the speculation on how your site works, you are free to end it by giving your own explanation. Looking at other bidding histories on the site, the explanation seems consistent with the bid history that I have here, and with that of other bidding sites, like eBay - a user's bid is increased in reaction to that of others up to the point where a later bidder places a maximum bid higher than that of the first bidder. --GreenReaper(talk) 04:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This also applies to any information which may be found on either the main auction site, or the Discussion Board.
 * Means any and all information which refers to the user, including bidding record. I only have made it available for persons who have a need to know, onsite. The information, as it stands right now is only the copy that gives the barebones bid-sheet, which is hypercondensed. The logs which I have are much more detailed, and explain in greater detail what happened. I also have many emails between all concerned parties, and logs of other conversations which all are part of the contributing factors to learning exactly what happened.
 * There is much which will never be made public about how the system works. I am aware that many people will make assumptions based on what they see. And, yes the site is designed to use the proxy-methos, but it is styled a bit differently, based more on another model, which i am not at liberty to disclose where i picked it up. personal and such.
 * What is worrying me most is that Jurann and FurBid-SF do not have a very happy relationship. I need to keep everything in this investigation 100% above board, lest someone accuse us of not being impartial and influenced by popular opinion.
 * --Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur 04:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Moved from the article
Sine 06:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC): I've moved the following, added by Ayukawataur, from the article to the talk page:

Note:: The Administaur of FurBid-SF has expressed concern over the interpretations which are being made over this issue. She has not released any information as to the internal investigation, or the internal workings of the server, the software, or the logs which are all part of her internal investigation. She also refuses, at this time, to release any content of her conversations with all parties which are directly involved with this issue until her internal investigation is complete. Her belief is that people should not base opinions on assumptions and rumor.


 * i have posted my final decision about this. anyone who wishes to update his page in the proper format may reference:
 * link
 * --Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur 06:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for letting us know. --GreenReaper(talk) 06:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * seemed only fair. you were patient with and worked with me on my issues regarding this.
 * -Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur 07:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * i would like to request that the word ban in the section "furbid ban" be changed to suspension. i would also appreciate if the name furbid were changed to "FurBid-SF".
 * --Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur 22:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Additional suspicious blanking
Just for documentation/tracking purposes, I'd like to make mention that the IP address 71.231.178.155 (resoling to c-71-231-178-155.hsd1.wa.comcast.net, presumably Jurann) also engaged in this blanking of information in the K'sharra article that was critical of him, just one minute after this blanking of the same/similar critical information from the Jurann article.

I find it suspicious that the subject of this article is trying to remove this sort of information. But maybe that's just me. --Douglas Muth 16:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It has been pointed out to me that this is not the first time that Jurann has engaged in auction hijnks. It seems that he was banned from FurBid by its previous owner for abusing the system.


 * Something else I noticed. From the current incident, the subject stated: "while I violated no policies of the art show"
 * From the previous Furbid incident, the subject stated: "nowhere in Furbid's policies is anything mentioned about what I did being against policy"


 * Is it just me, or does this look like a case (2 cases, actually) of Rules Lawyering? --Douglas Muth 16:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not so much the rules that concerns me, but that he should understand the spirit of them as well. In a reply to one of my own posts on the artists_beware thread, Jurann stated that he had been bidding in online auctions for 10 years and had attended 70 furry cons. His point was that I had far less experience than he in auctions. On that he was most likely correct, but that raises the question of why he's so surprised that people would at least be concerned about his actions. I tried to think up ways of bidding that would not result in such concerns, but was rebuffed.


 * Funnily enough, the post that K'sharra made to artists_beware group, along with all the comments, has now been deleted - presumably by K'sharra herself, as I do not believe the administrators of that group would do it. --GreenReaper(talk) 16:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Request for exclusion / page blanking
In this edit, the attached article was replaced with:


 * Jurann and all information pertaining to Jurann, the character and the owner of the character, are the intellectual property of Timothy Rea, who has asked that any information pertaining to said character or person be removed from this system permanently.

Given their other edits, I believe them to be User:Jurann, who made an extra edit adding Protected-Excluded to the page.

Jurann then replaced a section of this discussion page with the same template and the edit note "This is closed for discussion", and subsequently erased the rest of the article.

Firstly, a couple of general points:
 * Jurann is not "your page". It is WikiFur's article about you. It is a public resource, and attempting to blank it unilaterally is like attempting to delete a newsgroup or forum thread about you on a system which you do not control. Such changes will just be reverted without administrative approval.
 * This discussion (or talk) page is separate from the article itself. Personal exclusion is not applied to talk pages, and altering or removing the words of another user here is only considered acceptable under very exceptional circumstances, none of which apply here. It is an open discussion and you cannot "close it". Statements here are the opinions of those who make them (which is why they are signed), not representations of fact (including facts about other people's opinions) by WikiFur.

Specifically in response to your message: Users are free to give a description of someone else's character, as long as that description is not a copy of your creative work. For example, it would be fine for someone else to say "GreenReaper is a green norn who has dappled dark green fur on his shoulders and a large lime green mohawk", as this is merely their own description of my character. Obviously, taking your own description from FurryMUCK would be less acceptable, as that is a copyrighted work (you would have to submit that it here yourself, at which point it falls under the GFDL, which permits further editing). Facts about your personal actions are certainly not your intellectual property, as they are not creative works - they are facts.

Regardless of copyright ownership, we do have a policy on personal information. However, it is my belief that your actions in public auctions and the resulting opinions of others (and actions taken by them) are not covered by this. This information is not idle gossip, but directly related to your official position as Art Show director for RainFurrest. I'm open to discussion on this, but I personally feel that your actions in bidding on your mate's work are very much in the public interest, just as Starfinder's commission delinquency or Banrai's past art theft were, and are grounds for rejection of the exclusion request. It seems obvious to me that this is the reason that you made the request.

Having said the above, WikiFur should not be a biased source on this or any topic. This article should instead have a comprehensive and accurate representation of the facts. If there is important information that you feel has not been mentioned or which is inaccurately represented, you're welcome to work with us to improve it. However, if the plain facts of the situation are cause for concern for some - which, looking at the post on artists_beware, they are - then it is likely that these people are going to come away with the same impression upon reading this article, no matter how these facts are presented.

If you wish, your real name, job and age can be removed (as they are protected items of personal information), unless someone can give a very good reason why it has particular relevance to the furry fandom. I have already removed the picture of your character myself, as there is no record of having either the author's permission to display it here, or your permission to do so. --GreenReaper(talk) 16:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You have been blocked by another administrator for repeated blanking of this page and legal threats. Regarding your intent to file a complaint to Wikia, the appropriate method is likely to be [mailto:communtiy@wikia.com communtiy@wikia.com] in the first instance. They also have a designated agent for DMCA takedown requests. If you do file such a request, be aware that we will file a challenge on the basis that this is the work of others and is not under your copyright. Stating the facts on the article about you and expressing our opinions about your actions here is not something that you can control, and your continued attempts to do so will not help your situation. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The information I specified above, along with his current location, have been removed from the article on request. --GreenReaper(talk) 22:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This is not a legal advice In Feist Publications, Inc. v. Rural Tel. Service Co., Inc., the Supreme Court found that raw data, such as names, phone numbers, towns, and so forth, were not original and so not subject to copyright protection because the information did not owe its creation or origin to the plaintiff. -- Wesha 00:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Blanking history and timeline
Since the subject has now resorted to legal threats and threats to complain to Wikia, I'd like to document all activity from him thus far:


 * 3:51 EDT 17 April 2007 - Partial blanking of Jurann
 * 3:52 EDT 17 April 2007 - Partial blanking of K'sharra
 * 3:58 EDT 17 April 2007 - Complete blanking of Jurann
 * 4:17 EDT 17 April 2007 - Improper adding of "Protected-Excluded" template
 * 5:03 EDT 17 April 2007 - Partial blanking of the article's Talk page. Improper addition of "Protected-Excluded" template.
 * 5:04 EDT 17 April 2007 - Complete blanking of the article's Talk page.
 * 12:59 EDT 17 April 2007 - Blanking of page. Improper adding of "Protected-Excluded" template.
 * 13:01 EDT 17 April 2007 - Partial blanking of K'sharra.
 * 13:02 EDT 17 April 2007 - User:71.231.178.155 blocked
 * 13:06 EDT 17 April 2007 - Blanking of page. Legal threat.
 * 13:07 EDT 17 April 2007 - Blanking of talk page. Legal threat.
 * 13:08 EDT 17 April 2007 - User:Jurann blocked
 * 13:16 EDT 17 April 2007 - Reason for blocking left on user's talk page by User:GreenReaper
 * 13:16 EDT 17 April 2007 - Article blanked from a new IP (resolves to dsl092-244-248.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net). Subject commented: "I can play the IP game all day long, you got all day to play with me?"
 * 13:20 EDT 17 April 2007 - Article protected

It should be noted that at no time did he actually dispute the contents of the article, or attempt to engage in discussion with us on this wiki. All communication from the subject consisted of comments such as "This is closed for discussion" and legal threats. --Douglas Muth 17:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Further
I have made my rebuttal and counterpoint along with a detailed list of supporting information including a timeline and a multi-point clarification of the issues involved in the events poorly described under the "Controversy" section. You can find it publicly available in my LiveJournal, along with the feedback and comments from other users concerning their opinions and clarifications as well. Enjoy. (I placed this above the sections below because this pertains to more than one of the sections, admins please feel free to reformat page as necessary.) Jurann 20:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sine 05:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC): I assume http://jurann.livejournal.com/138792.html ("Auction Hijinks", posted April 17, updated with "Clarifying the Misunderstandings" on April 18) is the post Jurann refers to above.
 * Thoughts on what from it is appropriate to include in the article? Would it be best to simply drop it into the External links section?
 * A couple of things might need [sic]ing if quoted. Throughout the post Jurann refers to K'sharra as his roomate. He also refers to Ayukwataur using male pronouns.
 * Reading through the post and comments, there isn't something that jumps out at me as an obvious, brief summary from Jurann. Except perhaps something he wrote in a comment posted today:
 * I'll try and have a stab at this tomorrow/later today. Been tied up with other things for most of it. --GreenReaper(talk) 08:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The Ayukawataur and her updated comments
i know this may be late in game but, and i will be need to look up exact date. i am not at console so i can not check when the change was made. but, at anthrocon 2007 i had a long talk with both jurann and k'sharra. i was convinced they understood what the issue was and why he had been excluded from bidding. within a week after ac i removed his suspended status and he has again been allowed to use the system. though, he has elected not to.
 * --Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur 06:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You cited entirely different reasons for the suspension between private emails to me and Jurann, your LiveJournal posts, WikiFur edits and discussions, and at Anthrocon. It is my understanding that Jurann continues to not use Furbid-SF because he feels uncomfortable about the vagueries surrounding his suspension and unwelcome due to his status as staff on a competing website.
 * As it is, the matter is closed and well in the past. I was simply drawn to this post via a link regarding something completely different, and noticed that only one side of certain events had been posted, so felt compelled to provide more accurate and complete representation.
 * --Ksharra 09:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * he should not feel uncomfortable. he is more than welcome, and always has been. other than his brief suspension based entirely on his actions and inability to understand what was wrong with such actions. sometimes, speaking to a person in a face to face situation is what is required to explain and make certain the other individual understands. furbid-sf has a larger user base, and he is missing out on the advantages of the listings which may be found there.
 * it should be noted, the emails between you, myself, and jurann were emails in which i was investigating, and attempting to gain information which was needed in order to make a decision, which was later posted on my livejournal after a fit was thrown in order to explain to the public exactly what was the reason, since said fit was not involving the truth.
 * as to why i have not released the absolute and complete story, as i have stated numerous times in the past. internal privacy policy does not allow me to explain any others actual bidding strategies as such may create an unfair disadvantage for the individual whom the strategy applies. if i am correct, this can also act as a citation, and may be referenced as such.
 * i agree, it belongs in the past. and, as you were drawn here by a post via a link, i was drawn here via an update link. i noticed it claimed he was still suspended, which is not true and felt compelled to make note it was inaccurate. there are other inaccuracies, but it is christmas morning, i think i am catching a cold, and i really wish to not debate this any more. please, have an excellent christmas, and i look forward to seeing both you and timothy at fc.
 * --Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur 18:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As of yesterday he was still unable to access his account or use the password mailer. However, this may be due to the same technical difficulties which caused him to create a second account in the first place.  Perhaps when you are over your cold, you could look into this further.  Have a happy holiday, and feel better.
 * --Ksharra 18:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * that depends. last time i checked, furbuy@furbuy.com was no longer working, which is what he has on file. if he emails me from @furbuy, i can update his email to that, which should be our solution.
 * --Ayukawataur : FurBid-SF Administaur 23:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)