Talk:Furnal Equinox

Archived Discussion: /Archive 1

Section cleanup/edit (Read First)
Excuse me! (like talking to a wall in the middle of a blindfolded pie fight):

Okay, so I was asked for some help ask a Curator how to solve this, here is how we could go about it; This is a short gist to it: Work your two different sections (using the talk page of that new article!), talking back and forth (NO editing the other side type wise, talk instead, let the other side make the edit) until an agreed upon twin copies is achieved, then transfer back one single copy to the main article, and continue working until all sections are completed.
 * Open a new article, Furnal Equinox-History

Rinse and repeat (in order, do not jump article sections until the prior one is completed): Any other way, is just a looong edit war - Spirou 19:31, 9 October 2011 (EDT)
 * Furnal Equinox-Conventions
 * Furnal Equinox-Operations
 * Furnal Equinox-Origins and controversy...

Resolution of disputes
To follow up on this (four years later!), Dan has proposed to me privately, and I agreed, that the maintenance of some of the origins and controversy sections was really sour grapes between the two sides involved, and that with those issues now well in the past, they are of less relevance for inclusion in this article, which should focus on the convention's factual, objective accomplishments (like virtually all other convention pages on this wiki). I've also asked Dan to post here to verify that this was indeed the discussion.

As such, we have mutually agreed on a revision to this page that I am posting to the page now. It is a significant edit, so I wanted to indicate on the talk page that this was forthcoming. In addition to editing down some of the more controversial sections, it provides additional information on the accomplishments (and leadership) for the convention over the past few years, with appropriate citations.

I trust that this should resolve outstanding issues and perhaps allow the NPOV and cleanup tags to be removed as well. --Scani (talk) 17:06, 26 July 2015 (EDT)
 * "We decided",... No, two people can't decide to blank actual historical events, no matter how bad or controversial they are. Whitewashing an article to make it pretty is censorship, not "focusing", "water under the bridge" or "moving on". This is a note to inform that the edits will be semi-reverted to restore all Past occurrences. - Spirou (talk) 18:13, 26 July 2015 (EDT)


 * I appreciate the concerns you've expressed as a WikiFur colleague -- that said I will note the following.


 * As Dan noted below, four years ago when this was brought up, the onus was placed on the parties involved (currently represented by Dan and I) to come to a mutually agreeable solution -- that implicitly implies that the end result would be something that both parties can live with. It took ages for it to happen, yes, but that has been done.


 * If the content still meets WikiFur's notability criteria, would it be appropriate to fork said content to a separate article, with a link (reference) to said article within the "History" section? --Scani (talk) 18:56, 26 July 2015 (EDT)


 * I agree with condensing the article such that it presents a concise and neutral description of the event and it's accomplishments as well as information that may be useful or interesting to those wishing to learn about the convention such as it's organizers, origins and history.


 * I believe long descriptions of past grievances and disputed facts are of little use or relevance to most readers.


 * I thought we were instructed to find something we both agreed upon. --Dan Skunk (talk) 18:34, 26 July 2015 (EDT)
 * @DanSkunk: Personal grievances outside the venue, yes that's normally not relevant, grievances that shaped the history, shape and outcome of an event, that's is historic information. Not the first event that has it chronicled, nor the last. And length does not have anything to do with the reason with whitewashing (see: Fur Affinity's Controversy section).
 * "Instructed" to find a middle ground does not entail massive vanity blanking.


 * @Scani: No, it was not done (mutual ground). The controversy parts were just obliterated, based on your mutual decisions, to just whitewash. It's not to please both of you, it was asked that the presented information were worded without taking one or another side, not strike the paragraphs right off.
 * No, it cannot be moved to another section as with the Fur Affinity example. FA's controversy section was too massive, almost rivaling or surpassing its main article when it was decoupled.
 * Since you are both present right now, I can postpone the semi-revert if you wish to truly mesh the present and stripped information together. - Spirou (talk) 19:14, 26 July 2015 (EDT)


 * That's basically my concern. I obviously have a clear bias here (discount if you wish), but to look at it objectively, the timeline section was about 50% of the article on its own (article as a whole 15,600 bytes, that section roughly 7,800) -- which I feel fits that "overwhelming" criteria. Additionally, statements such as However, Dan Skunk's WikiFur edits have similarly been viewed as self-promoting or self-aggrandizing,[16][17] an assumption not entirely without merit, given that Dan's edits at the time of Sept. 11, 2011 about himself, Ontario Furries and Furnal Equinox contain no less than 42 mentions of his own name cross the line from encyclopedic to editorializing.
 * I'll post another draft of history here on the talk page that includes said info, let me know your thoughts before you semi-revert -- thanks. As you can probably guess, if the facts in the timeline need inclusion, there are some loops that need closing in it -- the furnalequinox.org domain referred to, for example, was turned over, and that's a germane piece of information to include. --Scani (talk) 19:40, 26 July 2015 (EDT)


 * Dan and I have worked back and forth this evening and come up with the following below, with info from the previous Timeline section. Spirou, your take? --Scani (talk) 22:23, 26 July 2015 (EDT)
 * I believe that still gives the important events and consequences--without overwhelming the article with it. I'd be ok with using that version if it's acceptable. --Dan Skunk (talk) 22:19, 26 July 2015 (EDT)
 * I'd like to engage with the moderators to look into resolving this dispute, and make a final determination on the article. I'm the incoming chair for 2019, and appreciate the intention to keep factual accuracy while still pointing out that the rivalry has been amicably resolved, and I'd like to accommodate that. Is the outline below provided by Scani and DanSkunk acceptable, or is there additional information needed? --Aaeden (talk) 21:27, 16 April 2018 (EDT)

Origins and first year (2008 - 2010)
Prior to Furnal Equinox, there had never been a large, hotel-based furry event hosted in the Toronto area. (Camp Feral has run continuously since 1998 at a summer camp three hours from Toronto.) The Islington Furmeet, created in the summer of 2008 and taking place in Toronto's west end, was a recurring meet in the area that demonstrated the viability of large-scale gatherings. Through 2008 and early 2009, discussions regarding the feasibility of a hotel event took place on the TorFur Mailing List and the Ontario Furries forum. After initial faltering steps including attempts to determine date and staff members by vote, the discussion moved to a private mailing list in March 2009.

In June 2009, the convention formerly incorporated as Anthropomorphic Events of Ontario, with Pakesh De, Blindsight, Crassadon, Dan Skunk and Scani as its initial directors. Pakesh assumed the role of convention chair, with Blindsight joining later as a co-chair. The two would remain for the following five years. FE was promoted in its first year as "Toronto's First Furry Convention" and formally announced its name on July 1 (Canada Day), 2009.

In July 2009, Dan Skunk was removed from the organization's convention committee due to, in Furnal Equinox's view, irreconcilable differences with the remainder of the concom that were impairing the ability of the convention to continue.

Despite operating as a two-day event, the first Furnal Equinox proved to be a success, breaking the existing attendance record for a Canadian furry convention and exceeding all expectations -- including those of the organizers, who ran out of conbooks midway through registration on Saturday.

Controversy (2010)
Following the 2010 convention, Dan Skunk made a post on the Ontario Furries website, claiming to be unfairly prevented from helping with the convention and treated rudely by the chairs and staff. The complaint was subsequently deleted. Around the same time, an extended editing dispute between Dan and FE staff took place on WikiFur's Furnal Equinox page.

The dispute finally reached a head with the following events:


 * Dan removed Furnal Equinox's forum from Ontario Furries, and unsuccessfully called for a boycott of Furnal Equinox on the Ontario Furries web site.
 * Furnal Equinox and fellow Canadian convention What the Fur severed their relationships with Ontario Furries through official statements..
 * A number of other regional forums were created: CanadianFurries.ca, torfurs.com, and OntarioFurs.com.
 * Dan created a web page at furnalequinox.org to state his viewpoints.

The bans on Furnal Equinox staff and discussion were fully removed from Ontario Furries in 2013. In June and July 2015, Dan Skunk removed the content at furnalequinox.org and transferred the domain name to Furnal Equinox. As of July 26, 2015, the furnalequinox.org domain redirects to the main Furnal Equinox website.

Subsequent years (2011 - 2015)
After the 2010 convention, Arc, the convention's head of Security, joined the Board of Directors. By 2012, Furnal Equinox had doubled in size and expanded to a new wing of the Doubletree hotel. At the conclusion of the 2012 event, it announced a move to the Sheraton Toronto Airport Hotel & Conference Centre, where all subsequent events have been held. With additional growth in the past several years, recent conventions have seen the addition of additional programming hours on Friday, and other special events such as a hospitality suite, a fursuit dance competition, and a masquerade. After several years of working as publicity lead, Scani was announced as the new chair of the convention in July 2014, with Olefin also joining the board of directors. Blindsight, Pakesh and Shane remained on the board for an additional transition year before fully handing the reins to a new team in the summer of 2015.

At closing ceremonies for Furnal Equinox 2015, Keianza was announced as the winner of a logo competition that had taken place for the past several months. The new logo will be fully utilized for the 2016 convention.