Talk:Sunrise MUCK

Editing problems
There seems to be a problem with editing this article, in that it erases the Prides section when edits are done...see and  for examples. This happened after the MU-logo tag was added by GreenReaper - is this the source of the problem? Spaz Kitty 05:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I just noticed, too, that if you click the 'Edit' link above 'Prides', it takes you to edit 'Characters' instead. o.O Spaz Kitty 05:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I did too. There is something screwed up here, I'm guessing because of the == lines in the logo. --GreenReaper(talk) 05:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Change of name or successor?
A description of Sunrise MUCK in the Pueblo list of furry worlds says "Sunrise MUCK, formerly known as 'African Tails MUCK'" Can anyone clarify this? I assumed that African Tails closed and Sunrise MUCK opened, rather than just a name change. -- Sine 19:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe Sunrise was the successor, not a name change. Similar to Kings and Vagabonds MUCK opening after Endless Round MUCK closed, there was a player desire to continue RPing with the same playerbase, and possibly some of the same features as the previous MUCK, but not necessarily exactly the same. Spaz Kitty 19:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

'Controversy' paragraph
As one of the wizards from Sunrise MUCK, I'm concerned that the Controversy paragraph in this article is misleading about the issues being discussed. (Bearing in mind this sentence from WikiFur's editing rules: "If there is controversy, make sure to include resources and links to both sides of the issue, and attribute opinion to specific groups of people.") It gives only the criticising point of view without saying anything about the views of those on the other side of the issue. In the case of the most recent edit, it is also bordering on factually inaccurate.

Both controversies cite threads on Sunrise MUCK's forums as their only source. The first criticism is factually accurate in that there is indeed some concern from a few existing players about the openness of the playerbase to new players and varying levels of RP skill. However, what the article does not state is that the admin of Sunrise have acknowledged these criticisms and put making new players feel welcome high on their priority list, and that any players who have trouble settling in are openly invited to page a member of staff who will help them find their niche. There are other non-admin posters in the referenced threads who testify to this improvement, so I propose an additional sentence after the first one that briefly explains this. (I'd be happy to write such a sentence, but I'm posting here first in hopes it can be agreed on before making an edit to the article.)

The second alleged controversy, despite referring to 'players' been concerned about material being lifted from 'MUCKs' in the plural, actually concerns a single MUCK and a single player in a single incident. Furthermore, it implies plagiarism with its reference to 'material', when in fact the disputed 'material' was an idea that actually bore only a loose resemblance to the idea that was suggested by the player who complained. The concept was the creation of a group of honourable male lions; the player who said they had previously suggested something similar had in fact only mentioned in another board that their evil character 'may need one or two like-minded companions down the road'. (You can see it here: .) This was in turn a different idea from the complaining player's group of male lions that existed on ER MUCK, which was also not the main source of inspiration for the new concept. (It was actually inspired in feel by the movie 'Troy', and in form by the real-life tendency of male lions to band in groups, as stated in the referenced thread.)

Regardless of all this, the complaint was no more than the player saying they were 'kinda bummed' that an idea similar to theirs had been actioned. The player who created the group had not intended to steal ideas and said so, and the issue was resolved immediately and amicably without ever becoming a 'controversy'. I therefore suggest the removal of this sentence entirely from the article.

Thanks for reading. :)

--Kimelea 20:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC) (Afya on Sunrise)


 * I have removed the last sentence from the most recent controversy edit, and added a new sentence providing the other side of the controversy which I hope satisfies both sides of the issue. Spaz Kitty 23:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Tiyln admitted that she got the idea for the group from ER MUCK on the thread. Also, the Prideland characters have backgrounds extraordinarily similar to a plot that was attempted on ER (Simba being kidnapped by panthers and taught their ways). It is stated in the character's description, which I will quote here:

''This isn't the Simba that you would recall from the Lion King movies. His situation has turned out differently and thus he is by far a different lion. His father never died, and he never got to be king. He was stolen away in his early cubhood by panthers and taught to fight and fend for himself. His pride was laid to waste by a plague, he being one of the very few and lucky survivors. He's now a toughened rogue, living from day to day and meal to meal.''

There may be some cause for the lifting of the "Simba-Panther plot" that I am unaware of, but Tiyln openly admitted that the idea for the male coalition on Sunrise came from the group on ER MUCK. Therefore, I see no reason why the information regarding this was deleted. - Tukutu (from Sunrise MUCK) 19 April 2007, 20:27 (EST)


 * This is because it's the same Simba-player from ER bringing over the same Simba character they had played up until that point, just like my Zira is the same one from ER. When the controversy in May 2006 on Endless Round occurred, the current players of those FCs left to go play them on Sunrise. We chose to pick up where we left off, personality and plot-wise, rather than starting over with something new. Therefore, Simba has mention of the panthers in his past, since it had occurred to him on ER. See my response below concerning the male coalition. Spaz Kitty 13:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the quote that makes this issue pertinent is: "I KNOW ER had one. I was in it. I Really like the idea and take no hand in thinking it up by myself," by the staff member in question. Only after the players from ER spoke up did staff backpedal and start citing and emphasizing "Troy" as their source of inspiration. The player who told Sunrise staff that she was "bummed" about staff's actions is one of many players who worked on the Endless Round group. Just because she's the only one speaking up about it doesn't mean that she's the only one concerned. If it is allowable, I will be more than happy to cite outside sources on other forums where this is being discussed, along with other issues that aren't even mentioned here if staff feels it's appropriate. As for the lifting of plots and characters from ER, Tukutu, that's inevitable; Sunrise allowed the FCs from Endless Round to come over to their game during the huge Ed debacle of May 2006. However, whether the current player of Simba on Sunrise is the Simba who was involved with the panther plot is another matter entirely. What matters here, I think, is the fact that Sunrise staff is taking things from dead games (and admitting to it, as Tukutu pointed out) without taking the courtesy to even page the people who came up with it in the first place. And it isn't as though the staff member in question didn't know the original creators were playing there; she did. Still, I don't think it's plagiarism (you can't copyright an idea, even though the Sostrate ranks are exactly the same as the Warugaruga ranks were on Endless Round) so much as rudeness. The Sostrate coalition claims to be a group of honorable mercenaries, anyway. What that supposedly has to do with "Troy", I have no idea. - Anon 19 April 2007, 20:48 (EST)


 * I'm replacing the sentence into the controversy section, though it will be amended slightly to try and keep the tone neutral. Spaz Kitty 13:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The player behind the current Simba is indeed the same as played Simba on ER. Characters from TLK are not considered FCs on Sunrise so are never recast. The panther concept was made up by that player and brought to Sunrise by the same player.

However, there seems to be more to the Sostrate issue. As this discussion has raised issues that the Sunrise admin were not aware of, I'm trying to follow up what's been said by Tukutu and the anonymous poster so that we can put right any problems people have that were never brought to our attention before. Would the anonymous poster who commented yesterday at 20:48 please note that I have left a message on your IP's talk page. Thanks. :) --Kimelea 17:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC) (Afya)

This entire dispute is ridiculous. The only point of mentioning this one, tiny, and ludicrously trivial "controvery" (which as Kimelea has already mentioned consists of merely the personal irritation of a SINGLE player) on the Sunrise Wikifur website is to make the administration of the MUCK look bad. There is no reason on earth to behave as though this is the only instance of a male coalition of lions EVER EXISTING. Just because Sunrise has one doesn't MEAN that its creators HAD to have "stolen" it from ER. You can't sue someone for being inspired, and you can't claim that you had a copyright on that inspiration.

Futhermore, whatever happened in the Sunrise forum HAPPENED. Almost two months ago. Apologies were made. It is not an issue on the MUCK anymore, and therefore does not deserve to be included on Sunrise's Wikifur page. Not unless you want to also mention every -single- inconsequential argument that has EVER happened on Sunrise.

Additionally, it is downright WRONG to publicly libel Tilyn. There is -nothing- to be gained by giving vent to what is clearly a personal grudge against a wizard on a public website that exists to report FACTUAL and IMPORTANT information about a RP kingdom. I respectfully request that you guys grow up and understand that the purpose of Sunrise is not to rip off Endless Round. We existed before ER and we have existed after ER. Obviously, we don't need ER's ideas to be successful.


 * There is nothing here worthy of being called "libel". Libel is defined as defamation of a person - there is a direct quote from Tilyn's post, and there needed to be a reference for who said that particular quote. How is quoting someone to further explain the facts of a situation libelous? Your "respectful" request to "grow up" is more libelous than factually referring to Tilyn as having a leader in the group and quoting what she said on the forum, in my humble opinion. Regardless, please see my reply below. Spaz Kitty 19:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I've received no reply from the anonymous poster who posted three days ago. As such, I'm requesting again that the second 'controversy' be removed. I agree with the poster above in that the brief dispute over Sostrate was surely never a big enough deal to be highlighted in a short and factual article.

Tilyn got the idea of having a male coalition on Sunrise, from the one on Endless Round. That is ALL she got from the one on Endless Round. Male lions form coalitions in real life, so the only leap of imagination there was to port it to a MUCK and give it a military form. This basic coalition idea is what she is referring to in the forum post when she says she takes no credit for thinking it up herself. The ranks for Sostrate are standard military ranks taken from Wikipedia. Everything else, including the group's alignment and philosophy, was created on Sunrise, for Sunrise - with inspiration from movies and whatever else. To say that the group concept was stolen from ER is like saying the idea for multiple lion prides was stolen from TLK MUCK. The owner of the ER coalition long ago accepted that it had not been 'stolen', and the issue has remained a non-issue for the MUCK ever since. --Kimelea 19:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't want to have to keep removing and readding this section of the article, and it's obvious we're not going to please everyone. So, I'm slapping a "disputed" tag on the section and asking for some unrelated third party/administrator to come in and provide some advice on what should be done with this section. Spaz Kitty 19:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I really don't want to make a list of similarities between the Sunrise group and the ER group, but they're too many for the Sostrate to simply be "inspired" by the Warugaruga on ER. Sunrise staff can say that she made the coalition a military organization because it was the logical thing to do, but that's not what her post suggests. That's not what she says she did. Sunrise staff can claim that the idea of a male lion coalition is fair game - and it is. But the fact remains that they're more than just a group of male lions. They're a group of neutral-aligned mercenaries who hire themselves out to other kingdoms and have a strong bias against females, which is exactly what the ER group was, and exactly what Tilyn participated in. The ranks are the same. The philosophy is the same. The purpose is the same. It has absolutely nothing to do with Troy or 300. There are plenty of people using this talk page to debate this issue, so to claim that nobody cares about it is silly. Not everything in your game's Wiki article is going to be positive, because not everything in your game is positive. Deal with it; just because you don't like the way it reads doesn't make it libel, as Spaz Kitty pointed out. Everything in the article is cited. That said, I agree that the administrators need to step in and make a decision about the section one way or another. I know I'm disappointed with the way the situation was handled on the Sunrise forums; the staff over there was extremely unprofessional and continues to be extremely unprofessional. Additionally, I have added citation for the bit about staff "attempting to make new players feel more welcome" so interested readers can see what's being done to try and fix the problems that the MUCK is experiencing. - Anon. 15:37, 22 April 2007 (MST)


 * Sostrate is not a group of mercenaries for hire. As you'll see if you read the post, they are an independent roaming band that may CHOOSE to lend their strength in battle to honourable allies if the IC leader deems them worthy of help. Nor are they anti-female - it's just that OOCly the number of females in the group is heavily restricted, as that would make it a pride. And once again, the leader of ER's coalition - to the best of my knowledge - has no current complaints about Sostrate. I think it is reasonable to say that even if Tilyn had wanted to lift the Warugaruga concept in its entirety from ER, the approval of the group's creator would have been sufficient, in the absence of anyone else there identifying themselves as members of ER's coalition. It is not really reasonable to come out of the woodwork now and ask for Sunrise MUCK to be publically criticised for not taking note of a complaint you never voiced.


 * I have said before that I do not object to the sentence about Sunrise being considered unwelcoming by some; I'm content with that now that it is balanced, so please do not put words into my mouth by suggesting that I am demanding that everything in the article must be positive. I am not, however, content with your modification of its references. The first sentence is for criticism of Sunrise; the second sentence is for the positive things we are doing to deal with the complaints, and changing the citations around as you have done is malicious and presents that thread in the wrong context. The topic you referenced is mostly about what we need players to do, not about the efforts we are making to make new players feel welcome, and is therefore irrelevant to that sentence in the article. At the moment, there is no such post that is strictly relevant to that statement, because making newbies feel more welcome is an effort being done on an individual level on the MUCK itself rather than on the forum. If anyone wants a reference for that sentence, I would be happy to make a statement on the Sunrise forum to that effect. But now that the Disputed tag is on that section, please be so kind as to leave the article alone until the independent third party assesses it. --Kimelea 00:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I find it interesting that what you say completely contradicts what Tilyn told me in-game when I joined the group. Taken from the forums: "This militant coalition will be the combination of the savannah's most able bodied lions/fighter/soldiers. They are not EVIL. They are not GOOD. They have NO alliance, HOWEVER. All of these are left to RP in the future. Should a war begin, a pride COULD ask for their service, but that does not mean they will grant it." It says right there that they're a group of soldiers whose services are available to established prides. Yeah, they can say no, but that still makes them mercenaries. If you'd done your research, you'd know that the ER group had the exact same policy, right down to the borrowing youngsters from foreign kingdoms bit. The only difference is we called them 'wards' instead of 'privates'. Has it occured to Sunrise staff that people are afraid to say anything based on the way that a lot of players have been talked down to on the forums? To be perfectly honest, I have HUGE reservations about using this discussion page, knowing that you guys can match my IP to my MUCK account. Then again, if you had, you'd know that I am the creator of the original group on Endless Round, and if any of you had bothered to contact me about the contents of this talk page (you didn't), I would have publicly stepped forward sooner. All this stuff about me giving my "blessings" is a massive exaggeration. Anubis and Tilyn were going through with it, regardless of my feelings, even after I told them that it bothered me. But what bothers me even more is the fact you're chiding me for adding a citation that portrays you fellas in a more positive light. Please explain to me how pointing the article's controversy section to a forum thread in which Anubis proves you guys are making an effort to welcome people is "malicious". - Shetani 20:21, 22 April 2007 (MST)
 * As an aside, if you are concerned about IP addresses, I suggest you register an account and login, as the IPs of users are not visible to other users and are not made available to administrators except in the case of persistent vandalism, for blocking purposes. --GreenReaper(talk) 02:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If you are the ER group's creator, why oh why didn't you say sooner that it was you who were unhappy? We could have tried to put things right before it all got nasty. :/ The last I heard was this, taken from the referenced forum post: "It's fine, Tilyn. I'm sure you'll do a wonderful job with it. XD" That is what I am referring to by giving your blessing. I had no reason to suspect that wasn't still true and therefore no reason to bug you about it on the MUCK. If you were the original anonymous poster, however, you will have seen the message I left on your IP talk page encouraging you to talk to me privately regardless of your identity so that we could try to sort out any problems you had. I received no reply or acknowledgement. If you feel 'talked down to' on the forums, try a private message of some form. As for tracking you by IP, it is your right to choose to be anonymous, so I would not try.


 * I felt that given your statement above that you feel "the staff over there was extremely unprofessional and continues to be extremely unprofessional", your change to the article's citations was intented to draw attention to the requests Anubis has made of players rather than the flip side - the efforts we're making MUCKside - which is what that sentence is about. If it was not meant maliciously, I apologise. If the mediating admin decide to leave the citation as it is, I will add a post to that thread to make it relevant.


 * I think anything else that needs to be said that's not directly related to the wording of the article is better taken to another arena, so for my part I'll end my spam here. Given that the situation has obviously become more complicated since I made my original comment on this page, I'll leave it up to the admin to decide whether the statement currently in the main article is warranted. --Kimelea 09:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I personally think this is all dumb and over with. Everyone has their own opinion. I Did tell her that I wanted to make a coalition like she had on ER, but that in no way means i wanted to make the EXACT same one. 300 and Troy DID inspire me as well as the fact of the matter that i was IN that Coalition on ER and i remembered it and thought it a good Ideas because Sunrise had never had one. A 'coalition' isn't someones original creation, so I don't see the problem but that isn't the point. I based my own character off of Leonidus [sp?] from 300, his whole attitude and perspective.


 * Say what you want, I really don't care, as i said everyone has their own opinion of everything so knock yourselves out. Just quit this crap on here, it's pointless and pretty much only flames up everyones aggrivation.


 * Don't delete and redo anything, it really doesn't matter and/or fix anything. Just leave it all alone. I'm done, it's gone anyway due to INACTIVETY due to the players who wished to join. If the original creator of the coalition on ER wanted to make the one she intended to then it would be fine. I Never saw a post saying she was going to make one and I even went and looked at the one she directed me too. My bad, I'm sorry, stuff happens.


 * Hopefully this is all dead and over. There's no point in fretting over something thats not even there anymore.
 * -tilyn.

Due to present MUCK configuration, theme, and whatnot - this whole section needs massive revision or removal. The Playerbase has changed remarkably since the issue was started, the groups in question are non-existent (disbanded on the MU* almost two years ago.), and even the history of said groups on the MU are no longer prevalent due to the revival and changes in theme/history and the bulk of participants of said 'controversy' no longer being around. The issue is long dead and gone (And the dead's horse's twitching body beaten into a wonderful wriggling mess of giblets!) - as is the need for this whole section.

In addition, the notation of the MU* being 'cliquish' also needs to be removed as this has not been true or active for several years due to playerbase/wizz/staff turnover. Poor, broadly swept comments like this only hurt the MU*'s image without due cause or inference to the present situation.

Furthermore, this is affecting SunRise's playerbase and recruiting efforts - outdated (and frankly incorrect data in the present situation) only scare potential recruits off or shy them away... something which in the present situation needs to be addressed.

Due to no further discussion on this topic after last entry, I'm moving that these sections be stricken from the entry - and intend to do so if no further entries or changes are made in the next few days.

--Maiza 11:05, 12 April 2009 (GMT-10:00)


 * If the groups are changed or no longer present, update or delete them.
 * As for the other parts, we record past history as well as the present day. If it's no longer the case, and hasn't been for some time, feel free to make that clearer in the article by changing tenses, specifying dates, etc. --GreenReaper(talk) 01:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Presumed death
As the MUCK has been down for over 2 months with no word from the wizstaff on its return, I am presuming that the MUCK is now dead and have edited the article as such. Spaz Kitty 21:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)