User talk:GreenReaper/Policy6

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This is an archive page, covering admin and policy issues discussed on my user talk page from 22 July 2006 to 9 June 2007. Please do not edit this page - if you wish to bring up a topic, copy the relevant portion into a new section on the current page. Thanks! --GreenReaper(talk)


Name painwolf I need to talk to about my page.

Contact Info: Yahoo and AIM: NL4PAINWOLF MSN:


Replied --GreenReaper(talk) 02:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for coming to lunch[edit]

Here are my notes from our lunch. We will start working hard to get more information out on where the features and bug fixes are going. I really appreciated your support and encouragement, not too mention chatting with you at dinner Thursday.
Gil| talk

Did you know?[edit]

Rod O'Riley's band Illegal Operation will be performing live as part of the furry programming track at this month's Worldcon in the Los Angeles area. Do you think it would be a reasonable use of the Did you know? box to add an entry for this to help draw attention to it? Thanks! --Frizzy 16:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't see why not. That whole section could do with a full update. --GreenReaper(talk) 16:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I just got some bad news that the concert event had to be cancelled due to issues out of their control, so I revised the entry. --Frizzy 05:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


Hey GreenReaper, Its been a while since I had last heard from you, hows things? Listen, I just wanted to say thanks for the reversion of the damaged done to one of my character pages, man, when will this stupidness stop, hope to hear from you - RVDDP2501 23:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi there. Things are good! The vandalism will continue, undoubtedly, to a greater or lesser extent, but we seem to be coping with it well enough. :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 23:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi GreenReaper, the upgrade was a pleasant surprise after that last bit of unpleasant business. Thanks! --Frizzy 04:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

sorry for the previous post :[edit]

Sorry for the post, I just wanted to report a raid that was headed your way. If i suspect a raid in the future where do you think i should report this too?

I had to check the article history to find the post you were referring to. At a guess, it was probably mistaken for link spam, which we get here fairly often. We do appreciate the efforts of people to notify us of attacks in the offing. For future reference, it would be helpful to include a couple of sentences saying what is to be found at the link. (By the way, when I tried the link just now I got a 'Thread Not Found' error - whatver had been there is gone now.) --mwalimu 07:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Here is fine, although you could try the forum as well. As for your post, someone else edited my user page to remove it, but I'd already read the thread before you posted it so that was OK. :-)
We get a lot of people planning stuff, but half of them never show up, and the rest turn out only to have 5 people or so. --GreenReaper(talk) 16:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Incomming Raid Group!!![edit]

This is the WikiFur logo!

Be On the lookout for the next few days please sir! --PaulRevere 21:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be helpful if we had a link to the site where this came from so we could investigate further. --Douglas Muth 21:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, DeusEx again? He's been working on that for a while, as I recall. I guess we'll see if anything comes of it. We've coped quite well so far with a full bot attack, even when it was using a network of 600 proxies.
It's cute the way they seem to think using Í will stop google indexing their site, let alone the "totally inept" part. So far it's about 10-0 on successful "organized" raids. :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 21:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
That reminds me - did we ever implement a "panic button" - something any of the admins could use in an emergency to block all updates if a major vandalism/bot attack were in progress? If there is an easy way to protect the entire site to sysop only, that would probably suffice. --mwalimu 21:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Like a "Lock-down" script? Spirou 22:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
More like a "restrict edits to group X" script, though locking the DB might be a reasonable first step. --GreenReaper(talk) 22:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
You know, we need to write an app to have a Score Board like what Nidonocu has. --Douglas Muth 21:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I edit that manually you know. ;) Though I agree a panic page would be useful. --Nidonocu - talk Nidonocu 23:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh Gods ^-^ or a DHS's like Security Advisory System,... "Today's Threat Level is "Fluffy," with some chances of /b/tards in the afternoon." Spirou 22:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
sorry duesX or whatever your name is, I'm almost finished with my "vandalism vaccine" project. so nless you can get it in before that's done, you're just wasting your time working on a program that won't work... : ) - cchristian

Removing a name on "People".[edit]

Hello there! i am Crowe Basalt, and previously, i did go by "Grimmutt". i edited an article on "Grimmutt", but, as i am going back to only using the "Crowe Basalt" name, i'd like to have "Grimmutt"'s page removed.

thank you! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crowebasalt (talkcontribs) .

Hi there, Crowe, and welcome back to WikiFur! The best way to go about that is usually to move the article, as that preserves the original history. I will fix that up later tonight when I get home. Do you wish us to keep the information about your character Grimmutt as a separate section on the page about you, or should I remove it and just mention that you used to go by the name? --GreenReaper(talk) 22:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Alternative to page protection[edit]

Hey, this is Carrie Pika.

Is there any way I can get this page locked so it shows only this? I don't want anyone adding personal information about me without my knowledge, so I'd like to have it left at just this.

Thanks~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CarriePika (talkcontribs) .

We can probably do that. You could also just put your email into your user preferences and then click the Watch tab, so it will tell you whenever someone edits so that you can check it out. Which would you prefer? --GreenReaper(talk) 23:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that'd work great, actually! I'll go ahead and do that. Thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CarriePika (talkcontribs) .

Excellentage. Enjoy WikiFur. :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 04:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

something to be very angry[edit]

I wrote an article and someone, german wrote me this:

"Meine Fresse, ich hab noch nie so ein BESCHISSENES ENGLISCH gelesen. Kauf dir mal ein verdammtes Leben!!"

In a free translation it's:"Damn I've never read such a shitty english. Buy a damn life" Well maybe my english isn't taht good but is it necessary to write the comment in this way? Without an name or anything else.

I think you're not able to find out who did it are you?

And so maybe you could delete my account and the article about me. because I don't want to be a part of something like this. Sorry and thanks for the chocolat. ^^ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andraste (talkcontribs) .

That comment was made by a person with the IP address They are obviously not a regular user, otherwise they would indeed have signed their comment - and made the edit with a registered account. That edit to the talk page was their only contribution so far. There is therefore little to say about them, other than that their IP address resolved to the name "" - probably a dialup account in Germany.
I would suggest you pay as much attention to you as someone who posts once on a forum anonymously to insult you, never having contributed to that forum before - that is, precisely no attention at all. If your English is not the best, so what? You are German! The fact that you can write English at all is better than most English people could do with German. If they thought the article was bad, the anonymous editor should have fixed it rather than complained about it. And, in fact, many others did. :-)
In the last day several edits by at least four other people have been made to the article about you (perhaps you made a link to it from somewhere else?). I would ask that you consider those edits to be an example of what WikiFur is, and not the anonymous commenter - who, I would note, could not even manage to put their own comment in English. We have a policy against personal attacks, and any regular contributor would know better than to make such a comment. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikifur now adversarial?[edit]

I've read with interest the discussion on Sibe, specifically your comment:

That is why I am opposed to the removal of the article in whole - because what he has done deserves remembering. It is our business, because Sibe has been bothering us as a community.

Does this mean Wikifur will not be so much as a source of neutral information, but that Wikifur will now become adversarial in relations to information about people who you (singularly or collectively) believe have wronged Furry? Do you feel that it's now your job/right/reponsibility to punish these people by using Wikifur as a "bully pulpit"?

I hope this isn't the case. Wikifur, despite a healthy dose of pro-Furry slobbery, has been a respectable source of neutral information.

You'd have to put that question to the wider community for a full answer, as it's a question about where they want WikiFur to go. I'm one of the editors leading the project, but there are others. Still, I can provide some explanation, and the answer I would give is basically "no, but we're not going to go out of our way to do such people any favours either."
The information on the individuals itself should unquestionably be neutral and factual (no, this doesn't always happen, and if you see a problem, please explain why and fix it). The only choice we have been making in some cases is whether or not to remove that neutral information (or some of it) on request, per the personal information policy. This might well not be a neutral decision, because this is a community made up of members of the furry fandom, and as it is our website it is up to us to decide whether or not that is appropriate. Ultimately our role is to serve the best interests of the fandom, and that generally means trying not to hurt those who are or have been worthwhile members of it. We may care less about the possibility of hurting other people.
If a person is just a regular member of the fandom - maybe well-regarded, maybe just "one of the gang", then people tend not to fuss too much if they want to remove personal information - and if they have not really done all that much special, that might include the entire article about them (if not, then references to them might remain in other articles). If an individual has, over time, given the community a significant amount of grief, they are likely to say "no, this person is just trying to hide from the problems they have caused" and deny the request. In short, if they've had no respect for our community, then we as a community are likely to have as little respect for them. That is why exclusions that may be contentious go to talk pages - so that the community can decide what to do in that particular situation.
These sorts of situation are fortunately pretty rare. In Sibe's case, though, his "bothering" was widely commented-on, were intimately connected to his person (not any external group), and occured over a long period of time. If WikiFur is recording furry history, it makes little sense to exclude him, particularly given that he has shown no reticence (or regret) on occasion over detailing the lives of others where it suited him. We're perfectly aware that he doesn't like it being up there, but over time he's pissed off enough people in the fandom that few seem to care about what he feels anymore.
The thing is, all we have to do is say the truth. His own actions are what comdemn him. We don't even need to say they were bad. If telling the truth about someone makes them look bad in the eyes of the reader, then it's a fair bet that they deserve it.
This situation of information removal based on respect does not really apply to groups, whatever the standing of the group in the community. I would not support removing the history of the Burned Furs, for example, or that of Sociopolitical Ramifications, or FurryMUCK, because these are important groups that have had a historical impact on the fandom. Maybe if it was a really small and personal group that hasn't . . . again, that'd be discussed on the appropriate talk pages.

One final question: why is it so common to list the real names of people who've had adversarial relations with furry but not with those individuals considered friendly to the fandom? Why are real names included at all?

There might be various reasons for the inclusion of real names. For some people, their real name is just one item of information about them, such as the colour of their character's fur. Other people might not have nicknames that are well-known within the fandom (but really, this applies as much if not more to people "friendly to the fandom" as to others). In that case, it seems appropriate to use their real name, just as we tend to use the real name of artists that have used it as their identifier in the fandom.
In some cases, there may have been a good reason to find out the real name of a person, particularly if it might allow members of the furry fandom to more easily identify a person who is using a variety of nicknames or even their real name in a different venue (we can't say "go look at Laurence's posts in forum X" without telling them who Laurence is). It might also be that people are just more inclined to include the real names of people that they don't like, in the hope that others outside the fandom will see what that person is like. This is not ideal editing, but if the person concerned doesn't request the removal of their name, it will not be changed - the article will be reworded to be based solely on facts if possible, or removed if not.
The question perhaps shouldn't be "why are real names included at all", but "why aren't real names included for everyone?". Ultimately, aritcles should be under the name which people would link to, and so that is the only name that has to be there. In the furry fandom, this is more often than not the person's fan name, if they have one. They may only use this name, or they may use their real name as well. If so, people may or may not decide to add it, but it's not considered critical if it's not usually used. Even if a person's real name is regularly used, in general we will on request remove a person's real name and replace it with their fan name/nickname when describing them, whether or not they are/have been members of the fandom. However, members of the fandom are a) more likely to request this, becuase more of them come here, b) are (slightly) more likely to have such a request accepted (because if non-members are listed here it is usually because they are either famous or infamous, not just because they're furry), and c) are more likely to have such nicknames to use in the first place (we can't exactly say "The comic Fuzzy Things, authored by {blank} . . .").
I'm aware this answer was rather long and rambling, but that's because I'm tired, and it's a complicated issue when talking in general. If you have specific cases you want explained, feel free to point them out. --GreenReaper(talk) 02:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
GreenReaper, in response to your reply, I have added comments to two talk sections, Sibe and Burned Fur, pointing out what I see as an unfair biasing. I'm interested in your reply on both.
There's also one other possible point on Sibe that you might want to run by an attorney, since the status of Wiki's as "legitimate publications" is still in legal limbo: Sibe is legally a "private figure" and his actions in Furry do not make him, in the legal sense, a "public figure" (both of these are legal terms). As a private individual, he's afforded certain legal protections about what information can be revealed. These protections may or may not cover his criminal record or other information. I think it would be worth your time to consult with someone from the EFF and make sure you haven't crossed the line. While you say that you're just one editor, if no other person can over-rule your edits without your consent, it's your "publication". As such, even if Sibe were to decide to come after Wikifur et al for any damages the publication of protected information caused him (if any such protections exist at all), you'd still be on the line. Again, the law regarding this may or may not cover him.
I agree (unlike some) that Sibe is a private figure, and as such someone might be liable if we were negligent in publishing made-up facts, even if we did not act with the knowledge that they were false (or with reckless disregard as to whether or not they were false). For example, if we said that the Burned Furs burned people, that would be libel without good evidence. However, a glance at the talk page archives and article history should show you that we have been willing to work with concerned parties to ensure the accuracy of the article, and to obtain exact sources for assertions where appropriate. We have no interest in being negligent (and certainly not grossly negligent), because that makes for a poor article.
In contrast, the limitations on information that is actually true are really quite small, and in general don't apply to us as a private site. I'm not a lawyer, but this situation has come up before and so I've done some research. Criminal records are public information in the State of Washington (and generally speaking in other states). Most other privacy legislation is aimed at restricting what companies can tell third parties about their customers (who they have a contract with), and not about what individuals (who never agreed to any contract) may publish from their own knowledge. The First Amendment gives us rather sweeping powers in this area that allow us to publish just about anything as long as it is true, and in practice the "due process" terms of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Fourteenth Amendment extends this to the states as well. Credit card numbers, social security numbers and driver's license number would probably be stuff that should be removed. Other than that, it's pretty much fair game and up to the community to decide what it should publish, in a moral sense.
Wikia is able to overrule my edits without my consent. If people feel I'm not doing a good enough job, or that WikiFur is infringing their rights, they should contact them. They have more experience than I do, and I am willing to defer to them. --GreenReaper(talk) 19:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Peace from AU[edit]

Hello, my name is D. Coldheartt. I am the head admin of the Alternative Universe wiki which is also pretty big. I am a big fan of, well furry stuff and creatures and animals so i decided to join here. I was wondering if i could also become a administrator here if at all possib;e. D. Coldheartt 23:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Admin status is generally given to users who have a history of contributing to the wiki. If you're interested in becoming an admin, we recommend following Special:Recentchanges and contributing to/cleaning up articles, dealing with vandalism, etc.
I'm curious about this Alternate Universe wiki that you mentioned. Typing "Alternate Universe wiki" into Google brings up zero matches. A slightly more liberal search did not help me find it either. Did I misspell or typo something? --Douglas Muth 00:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The AU has actually been down for quite some time and replaced with Vandal Manifest Editthis Wiki. D. Coldheartt 00:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC) WikiTV started at Revived Haven Editthis and moved on to Meta Wiki. Jimbos one of the users alowed into revived haven. D. Coldheartt 00:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Googling for Vandal Manifest does not turn up anything.
Googling for Revived Haven does not turn up anything, either.
I'm sensing a pattern here. --Douglas Muth 00:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
And he first spammed a bunch of the admins to ask for admin privileges. --Frizzy 00:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Heres the link: to VM, a former vandal war site but now good. Ignore the messages the page their is called WikiTV. D. Coldheartt 00:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

None of the pages are available for viewing without a password 00:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Please ignore User:D. Coldheartt, it is a swfanon sockpuppeter and general wikia attention spammer. Usernames include: Alacaster Torn, The Vanguard, ThatLittleMidget, Proffesor Mephisto, Black Dawn, Licorice ... --Splarka (talk) 01:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Furry gaming project...?[edit]

Seeing as how Wikipedia has a project that concetrates on improving the quality and quantity of gaming articles, may I suggest implementing a similiar project? The amount of games with furry elements is not a small one, and it would be very helpful, if information about those games (most are old, PC DOS titles, which run perfectly under DosBox) was included in one place, for sake of completeness and subject coverage.

Especially games like Project Nomad could use that coverage, as they have literally truckloads of content, and it would be helpful to store it in one place, much like Albion's articles are done.

Just a thought.

Oh, and what is the general stance about making articles about oneself? Mikael Grizzly 22:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems like a nice enough idea. We already have something similar for fursuiting, although that's been slow recently. The trouble is there are few "meta"-editors at this time, and so you may find it hard to gather contributors to help you out. I would suggest that you concentrate on one or two particular projects at a time so that it doesn't bog down in needing to do 10 different things at once. :-)
Articles about yourself are fine as long as they are neutrally written, like any other article. --GreenReaper(talk) 04:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


Just tell me if I should remove the images. They are censored though, but you still see enough~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Garyu (talkcontribs) .

Higgs Raccoon[edit]

May I nominate Higgs Raccoon for upgrading to admin? In addition to contributing to numerous articles, he's helped revert vandalism on more than one occasion. --mwalimu 15:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's try that out, then. Contributions are a little low (and lacking discussion edits), but they are all good, and it's not like there aren't a couple of admins with fewer. :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 15:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, this is quite an honour. Thankyou Mwalimu for the nomination, and GreenReaper for OKing it. Quite unexpected, really - as noted above, I haven't been here very long and haven't contributed a lot as yet. Hopefully the whole Wikifur novelty won't suddenly wear off. Oh well, if that happens I guess what GreenReaper giveth he can also taketh away! ;) --Higgs Raccoon 10:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Technically, no - I have to go to Wikia for that. That's why I don't generally give it out without recommendation. :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 22:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, ok.. I read that wrong[edit]

Thanks for the clarification. I had interpreted that pretty narrowly before. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wunderwood (talkcontribs) .

Wikipedia's techniques on trolls[edit]

Wikipedia usually reverts banned troll's comments and semi-protects pages. It works better. Tretonin 10:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

It works for their situation. We have to make our own decisions and see how they work out. :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 21:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

DAMN YOU!!![edit]

You ALLWAYS seem to be around to delete changes no matter what time and what wiki I'm hitting :(

WHY?????????????????? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) .

Because I'm everywhere - I'm like the wind . . . --GreenReaper(talk) 20:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

more vandalism[edit]

Hey GreenReaperm, were getting vandalized including the front page! - RVDDP2501 14:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

O NOES VANDALISM @_@ -- 14:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

WERE UNDER ATTACK! - RVDDP2501 22:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Extinctioners Wikipedia page deletion threat again[edit]

Hey GreenReaper, Sorry to constantly bother you but I just saw on the talk page of the Extinctioners page that it will be coming under a deletion threat within several days claiming wikifur IS NOT a reliable source (yeah right), here is the link to the page - - I hope it will not be removed, I don't understand it, they have pages for other furry comics but they seem the think this one is not worthy but if you think its not worth fighting over, I will understand, thank you - RVDDP2501 13:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, WikiFur isn't a reliable source, at least not in Wikipedia's terms. Someone could come by and change anything at any time. Articles are not guaranteed to be peer-reviewed - indeed, there is no particularly certainty that information on WikiFur has been checked by anyone. Contributions are, in many cases, anonymous. If you want to have an article at Wikipedia, you need to give proper references to the primary sources (the comics themselves), or to secondary sources that have been published in some kind of guaranteed editorially-reviewed medium, like a comic review in a published fanzine (or better).
Consider: You wrote most of the pages on WikiFur about the comic. Who's to say you weren't making up half of the stuff you wrote? You can see their situation - they can't just rely on your words for its accuracy. It is not that it is a furry comic. It is the entire article is your original creation, and you've not backed it up with links that show the source of the facts that you state. Go look at this article for an example of what I mean. There are probably worse articles, but that does not excuse the one about Extinctioners. --GreenReaper(talk) 05:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate what you have told me and I finally can see where wikipedia is coming from, I will leave this decision in the hands of those at Wikipedia (since I am unable to try and fight for it to remain again) and just continue with the one here, thanks for your help :-) - RVDDP2501 23:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

FA and such[edit]

I just wanted to apologize, again-- though I guess to you directly-- for what I did the other day. I was responding more as damage control to prevent an explosion of drama rather than following the guidelines stipulated. This whole thing, though not directly affecting me, has seemed to've killed my patience and thinking. Thankfully it's cleared up now.

It won't happen again. Verix 17:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It's understandable. No worries. :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 19:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Uploading avatar pic quesion[edit]

Hey GreenReaper, sorry to bug you but I have a question, there is a pic I would like to use as my avatar (or fursona if thats what its called), I have gotten the artists permission (no via e-mail), I was just wondering what porceedures I need to do before uploading such a pic, here are the links:

I just want to ensure I do not mess up on this matter, I would really appreciate your help with this

I can't see that note, probably since they're private, but for that sort of thing we're fine with taking people's word for it unless the artist complains. Just make sure to mention the name of the artist in the picture description, and select "fursona" in the dropdown license box when you upload it. --GreenReaper(talk) 20:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
heres the note -

From: *shadow-wolf Date: Nov 4, 2006, 12:17:03 PM sure, go for it! Could you credit me in your journal or something, link back to the original picture? It'd be a great plug for me if you could. ^^ Thank you for having the courtasy to ask first


RVDDP2501 said the following:

Hi Shadow Wolf, I'm RVDDP2501, listen, I was wondering if I could get your permission to use your Venom Pic as my avatar, I really like it and I'm a huge Venom fan, I just wanted to ask your permission first, thanks

P.S. I'm the Extinctioners wikifur page creator

and finally (forgive my ignorence) what exactly is the drop box your refering to? - RVDDP2501 20:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

wait... I think I've found what your talking about - RVDDP2501 20:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Other-Language Wikis[edit]

We've talked before about a possible Swedish-language furry wiki. It is likely that I will find myself with a good chunk of free time (or at least that what free time I have won't be eaten up by pesky things like take-home schoolwork) in a month or so - would it still be of interest that I go ahead and request the wiki to be made? (Last we discussed it on LJ, I kind of got heaped with massive amounts of Stuff soon afterwards, unfortunately.) I could probably get Ricadonna to link it from the SveaFur homepage as well, so that there'd be at least a few contributors more or less guaranteed. --quoting_mungo 15:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone needs to learn to think before she talks. I also meant to ask if you have a preference for a Wikia-hosted wiki (would it help with organization, for instance?) or if it could be privately hosted for all you care? I know the host I plan on moving to makes it ridiculously simple to install a wiki, so if it's all the same to you that might be a better route, as that also eliminates the ads? I'm just disorganized today, sorry. --quoting_mungo 15:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd still be very interested in seeing more furry wikis in different languages. As the one who intends to do the work to found the wiki, it's up to you to decide where it should be. :-) I think Wikia is a good choice for those who don't want to be dealing with server-side issues or costs. If you believe that the technical ability to start and maintain the wiki software is available (whether you or they can provide it), and if you are sure that the hosting will be maintained, then there's no problem with hosting it anywhere. For various reasons, I felt it was suitable for the English language furry wiki to be here, but it doesn't mean others have to. We can link back and forth wherever you are. --GreenReaper(talk) 16:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I talked to my boyfriend, whom I will be sharing the bandwidth with, and unless I magically get an insane permanent-ish workload, it sounds as though I'll privately host the wiki when we get set up at the new host. Would put it somewhere around early December, which suits me fine as that puts it past most of my current deadlines. --quoting_mungo 17:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Aaand, I'm slow at getting things done, as usual. I'm still working on this, and it should get somewhere relatively soon (or so I hope), so I just wanted to draw your attention to one little thing. Whether or not you feel the Swedish wiki logo should have anything in common with WikiFur's (font and general text layout is what's in question here, I have an idea of what I want to do instead of the pawprint graphic) is totally up to you. --quoting_mungo 08:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm personally fine with furry wikis in other languages having similar logos to WikiFur, as long as they act essentially like WikiFur as well (that is, the purpose and general "spirit" of the site remains the same, though obviously the details of the policies would develop based on its own community). For example, I wouldn't want a German equivalent of Furry Horrors Wiki using it - that wouldn't fit in with the expectations that users have of the logo. --GreenReaper(talk) 09:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, I appreciate the quick response. --quoting_mungo 09:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


Is it okay to change species? cause i don't think a wolf fits me well . . . Wolfie 02:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

it's fine, but changing your'e account name here? that's a thing... cchristian
Nobody's going to stop you doing either, though if you change your name, let me know what it is and I can move the appropriate pages over so that the history is retained, rather than just copying and pasting it. --GreenReaper(talk) 03:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess i would want my new name to be Skunk-Raccoon. Wolfie 03:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Not going for something a little more . . . original? The danger of such names is that you might change over time, and also other people tend to do the same thing (see Tigerwolf). --GreenReaper(talk) 03:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Original? Well . . . i'll try, uhm . . . could it taken from a band name or something? Wolfie 15:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
It's up to you. I just want to help try and avoid name clashes in the future. The advantage of making up a name that nobody else has is that . . . well, nobody else has it. --GreenReaper(talk) 16:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think i came up with my name . . . "Basic Bassist". It's not the coolest, but, it works, i guess :) Wolfie 22:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Cool. Let me know when you're sure, and if you want me to move the pages about you to a new location (perhaps after you register that as a nickname here). GreenReaper(talk) 22:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
So, i just register that name, and that's it? Wolfie 22:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, and tell me here. *grin* GreenReaper(talk) 22:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Huh? Wolfie 22:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
"I wouldn't want to move your user page until you've registered the name, so tell me here once you have." GreenReaper(talk) 22:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Alright Basic Basist 14:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Done! GreenReaper(talk) 15:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you!!! *hugs* Basic Basist 23:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I spelled "Bassist" wrong . . . could you fix it? Basic Basist 02:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Sure. GreenReaper(talk) 02:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


Hello, thanks for the welcome! I've removed some unnecessary personal info from a vandal's userpage, since no one here has checkuser it would be of no benefit to them. Here is the version with the IP info on it, in case you need to request a checkuser with the staff. ^_^ Redfur 04:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


I ([Ket at ED]) didn't really consider it vandalism, so I removed that section. Hope that's fine-SkippFox 09:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Block of[edit]

Are you sure about blocking that entire subnet? We've only had two vandlism incidents from there over the last 24 hours. I'm concerned that we might exclude potential contributors from that block. May I propose that we unblock that block and reblock only if we keep having incidents of vandalism from there? --Douglas Muth 21:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If you wish. It's only 16384 addresses, though - I doubt we have contributors and trolls in that same block. GreenReaper(talk) 22:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


Ok, the discussion seems to have died on the talk page, so I'll ask you personally: can you just delete the info on Aardvark, as he seems to have moved on to other wikis? He hasn't vandalized here in about two months, I don't see the purpose. I understand he tried to get it removed a while back, but was... none too friendly about it and vandalized pages. Well, while that's not the only reason I registered, it's part of it - to get rid of his personal info. I've removed it from the ED article already and several editors, including yourself, have had their attentions drawn to edits to that article, but no one has reverted. Does this mean you feel it's not necessary? Let's say he goes for the rest of 2006 without vandalizing WikiFur - would you consider deleting the vandal page for him then?

ALso, someone has brought up that I may be Blu Aardvark... I'm open to having a staff member checkuser me to prove I'm not. I've actually edited elsewhere under other accounts - I would assume that's allowed on Wikia for privacy reasons, but they can at least tell you I'm located far from Blu Aardvark and edit elsewhere constructively. Redfur 13:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

  • You there? WOuld this be better handled by email? Or are you unconcerned? I don't mean to pester, but it's been buggin me. Redfur 01:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm here, but I have other things to deal with - work, sponsor relations and quick replies come ahead of replies to things I have to think about. :-)
If you don't get reverted on the ED page, then chances are nobody cares. However, I see nothing on the vandalism record page concerned that needs to be removed. There is no mention of the user's real name, or his full address, so it should not come up on searches for that, but it is possible for our users to obtain it if the vandalism resumes. It will come up on searches for Blu Aardvark (not high, as few pages link to it), but that seems more than appropriate, since the edits were made in connection with that name.
As he says himself, he's "opted for the benefits of accountability versus the benefits of anonymity." If he wants the benefits, he has to be willing to accept the costs as well. We're not about to give his life story (as ED would), but we will say what he did on our wiki, and point to other wikis where he did the same thing so people can see that, yes, there is a pattern here. Our objective is to stop him doing it again, or failing that, be able to respond in a meaningful way by contacting his internet service provider and asking them to enforce their terms of service against a specific customer. I don't see how hiding what he did will help that - I would view it as assurance that I could get away with anything if I waited a few months.
What will happen is that time will pass and eventually people who do happen across it won't care about what wikis he vandalized 5 years ago. He could quite reasonably say on his own page, "Well, yes, this happened, but I've moved on." I don't think many people are going to believe that after 3 months, though. GreenReaper(talk) 15:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess the info that remains isn't so bad. I've taken his real name out of the pages it links to, so if you insist, I'm only happy you replied. Thanks! Redfur 06:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thoughts on spam from webstores?[edit]

I've seen some links that state a specific item is "available at <insert webstore URL here>" where the website is an ordinary online store not involved with the creation of said item. When does this constitute unwanted spam? If the item can be Googled fairly easily, should we delete such link postings? Should we be supportive if the store is sufficiently furry or furry-friendly? -- Frizzy 01:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, this depends on the situation, but if the link does provide value to readers I wouldn't remove it. I may even have added it myself. There's a difference between "could be googled fairly easily" and "everyone will know where buy this item, and will do so without being prompted to do so," and it can often be the difference between a sale and a missed opportunity. I would probably consider putting a furry-friendly store above a generic link to, but I wouldn't remove a link to if it made it more likely that people would buy whatever it was. I see people buying more furry stuff as a good thing. *grin* GreenReaper(talk) 01:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

IRC statistics[edit]

I think you should edit it so that it shows it by person, not by nickname. also, it need an update because even though it has the names of people who said only 5 or 6 lines, my names are not listed... I was also wondering, where can I put my stuff about the IRC that I'm working on? thanks Green, - cchristian

This is not cool[edit]

encyclopediadramatica. com/index.php?title=User:Dukeotterland&curid=27747&diff=1997066886&oldid=1997066552 That. Tretonin 16:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are you complaining to GR about that edit? He's not an admin on ED. If you have a problem with my conduct there, you should take it up with the ED admins. (Or feel free to bring it up with me directly if you wish.)
And, for the record, I made the exact same edit to my userpage over on ED. www. encyclopediadramatica. com/index.php?title=User:Dmuth&curid=32694&diff=1997066885&oldid=1997066457 --Douglas Muth 16:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

removal of name[edit]

Sorry to bother you again, I made a request from you about a year ago pertaining to the removal of my name and desc from your wikifur site(this was done & I thank you for it). I've one further request which I hope is in your power to grant, which is: Could you please remove my name entirely from even pointing to that I was ever on this site? As it stands now when I do a search in google or Yahoo, it immediately pops up at the top of this list even though there is no actual description in the wiki, it still gives a desc of past avatars and the info that I no longer wished to be apart of the site. Thanks in advance T*o*m N*a*r*e*y <--done to keep the name from cropping up once again :)

I have removed your name from the disambiguation page that mentioned it - it should be OK as long as the fan names are only associated with each other and not yours. This was the one that Yahoo particularly liked. I cannot guarantee when they will update their cached version of the page - until they do, it will still show up under your name.
I'm a little uncomfortable with removing our talk pages about the exclusion request, since they're essentially our public record of why it's excluded in the first page. It is true that admins can always look, but my view is that if you're hiding something, you should at least not be able to hide the request to hide something. If people care that much about your involvement in a fandom ten years ago, you have to wonder whether they're worth working for . . .
Regardless, another administrator has decided to delete it (read: remove it from public view) for now. The short message stating that you requested removal needs to remain on the actual page, regardless of the fate of the actual request, as without that there is no basis for people to avoid writing about you here. The best way to ensure people don't even read that is to make a web page about yourself that is titled with and which mentions your name. That way it will end up as the main hit for your name, rather than WikiFur, as long as you link it in a few places. :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 02:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, is that there is no indication of when I was involved. It just says that I was. I've no idea why my name might be up there as I never really did anything in the fandom except create a few pieces of art and almost immediately deleted them within a few months of their creation. Like it or not, there is a dark stigma attached to that fandom by professionals in the game, vfx, sfx, comics, industries; of which I would liked to have had left behind. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) .

Well, nothing prevented the addition of a date. :-) I'm guessing a fan who liked your artwork on Yerf started the article about you (it was done by an anonymous user). As for the stigma - well, I guess I must be lucky, since I work for a company that's in games and they're not unaware of my fandom activities - heck, I have a picture up in my cubicle, and my boss will be dropping me off at the airport for FC this Thursday. Maybe the rules are different for programmers vs. artists, but I like to think times are changing, too. It gets harder to treat furry fandom as its stereotype when fans start buying out convention centers for a weekend. --GreenReaper(talk) 22:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks and hiya![edit]

Thanks for sorting my page out dude! I just got some questions: How do I do picture boxes and am I okay to put more up about the stories and stuff? Cya! Darker

You do picture boxes using the syntax in Help:Editing (for example: [[Image:Filename.png|right|thumb|200px|An image floating to the right of 200px width]] - but first, you need to upload the image. Make sure that the uploaded filename is descriptive. As for your stories, you're welcome to add more information about them, as long as it remains a descriptive piece about the works. Such descriptions should probably remain on the page about you unless they cover a work that has been published in paper form and have a notability aside from yourself (this is a slightly fuzzy boundary, but the majority of short stories and unpublished works lie under it). Oh, and on talk pages, you can sign your conversations with ~~~~, and get something like this: --GreenReaper(talk) 17:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Protected Dragonmorph[edit]

Hi there GreenReaper, this is Dragonmorph (for real), can you protect my editing from those unknown Furry haters? -- 15:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be fairly well protected already - the change made by a recent vandal was reverted one minute later. --GreenReaper(talk) 18:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Those trolls is gonna start messing up this web again and again. -- 20:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC) - Dragonmorph
It's always possible . . . but if they've not managed it this past year and a half, and not for lack of trying, I think we're reasonably secure. :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 20:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Removing a NPOV[edit]

I am not sure if I have done enough research, so forgive me for missing a relevant FAQ, but I want to know how to remove a NPOV designation from the entry on Wolfhome. Is there a procedure for this? If it still seems to be a slanted viewpoint, what criteria is there for knowing when it has been successfully reworked?

On a separate note, I am curious how to sign a document that I've edited... Yeah, I know, I *really* gotta learn how to RTFM someday! :) My posts are showing up with "The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wunderwood"... Am I supposed to sign my comments?

I'm sure GR will forgive me for responding on his talk page, but to sign your comments, just type -- ~~~~ and it will autosign it. Also, you can just click on the 2nd button from the right on the toolbar, the button that looks like a squiggly.--Kendricks Redtail 03:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Kendricks. I will practice by signing this update. :) Anyone want to step up to the plate on the NPOV question? It's not urgent or anything, but I figured since Wolfhome is active now and the article isn't all that acerbic, maybe it should be considered. --underdog 00:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

If you think it has been successfully neutralized, you are welcome to remove the template. If people disagree, they will probably add it back, along with a note to the talk page or in the edit summary. The criteria is the people's consensus opinion of the article. --GreenReaper(talk) 00:35, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Anthrocon 2007 plannings[edit]

I've created a new page over at WikiFur:Conventions/Anthrocon/2007 so that we can discuss what is planned for AC07 as far as wikifur related activities as we discussed on IRC. Please add whatever information or ideas you have concerning events and such. :) -- JaeSharp 10:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


Any chance you'd consider asking the whole Wikifur community to contribute more pictures for this category and Category:Fursuit? -- Zanimum 18:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

We talked in IRC - for those interested in free-licensed images, check out Category:Images by license. --GreenReaper(talk) 18:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


There doesn't seem to be any precedent, except the one set by SK on the 20th (see [1]). I'm really too tired over here to fight, but it just doesn't feel right. Blast 21.03.07 1324 (UTC)

That's probably because you're from Wikipedia, where most users do not have main-namespace articles about themselves. We have very few categories that are intended for user pages, and they are mostly included for things such as convention attendance which are not considered particularly notable (and which therefore have userboxes). Consider: Would you put Category:Animators on a user page at Wikipedia? No . . . if the person was notable enough to have an article in the main namespace, it would be on there instead. You would remove it from a user page, because main-namespace categories are not meant to link to user pages. Here, almost everyone is considered notable, and so has an article about them, and it is those articles that are under Category:People and the various subcategories thereof. --GreenReaper(talk) 13:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
For a few more examples of this, check out the user pages linked at WikiFur:Administrators. Most of those people also have pages about themselves. In practice, many users do not have anything but the {{ContributorU}} template link on their user page, added by another user. --GreenReaper(talk) 13:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, it's hard to get rid of that 'is this notable?' mentality (even if I don't agree with it) on here, so it seemed kind of...I guess narcissistic to make a mainspace article on myself, rather than put it at my userpage (which in practice on WP is where all non-notable people have their 'articles' hosted). Consider also that, when I came here, there were a lot of userspace articles listed in the categories, and so I thought that had been okayed a while ago.
But screw it. I'll shut up and go back to patrolling vandalism on WP now. Blast 21.03.07 1341 (UTC)
Our major problem with user pages is that they're not easy to find or link to. Most searches only cover the main namespace, and with good reason - because those are the ones people want to read and link to. This is fine for Wikipedia, where user pages do not have notable information on, but it doesn't work so well here, where you might well want to link to pages about artists (for example). It also separates the "information about you" edited by anyone from the "information from you" edited mostly by yourself. --GreenReaper(talk) 13:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Would social groups fall under organizations?[edit]

Hi, I'm cleaning up the category and stub hierarchy a bit and wondering if you think social and ideological groups would also fall under organizations? --Frizzy 21:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm not really sure, but I'd tend towards "no" - or at least "not always". It can be a hard line to draw, though.
Wikipedia suggests that organization "pursues collective goals, controls its own performance, and has a boundary separating it from its environment". This tends to apply to groups such as conventions (which are usually "organized" as companies, and if not they still have some sort of formal structure), but it may not apply to people who are, for example, simply interested in a particular topic. Some groups may have no collective goal, just a collective interest. Therefore the furry fandom as a whole is a social group, but is not an organization because it has no formal structure - nobody has the power to say "you're not a member of the furry ffandom". Conversely, WikiFur is, because it has a specific (if relatively wide-ranging) goal, has a structure of rules and guidelines for its contributors to follow, and although it has open membership, there is seen to be a difference between being a contributor or not. --GreenReaper(talk) 21:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback! I added some more templates for some of the stubs that were hard to categorize. Let me know if the heirarchy works for you. --Frizzy 23:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Seems to be fine for now - hopefully the extra stubs will help people concentrate on improving the topics that they're interested in. I'm sure if it becomes necessary to make modifications in the future we can do that. Thanks for your efforts! :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 03:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The files[edit]

Regarding the link you added to Banrai, I did not do so myself because it asks for people not to link to it anymore at the end of the post. --GreenReaper(talk) 03:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed that! That is indeed the high road to take. --Frizzy 09:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


Hey Green,

I am a Wiz on a MUCK called Altered Realities under the name of "Jeanette", you know, that lovable little longear'd donkey Wiz? Well, anyways just thought you would like to know that your old chumly Mozdoc has gotten himself banned from AR for constant harrassment, page-spamming a member of our Helpstaff with 431 consecutive pages of hate-filled rants, constantly putting the WIZZES THEMSELVES on ignore and PAGE-ignore, stalking of other furs and just generally being his usual self. All I can say is just watch out for him, he is a very unstable individual and a dangerous person. I just want to ask ... HOW IN THE HELL did he ever get in to the National Guard?? He reminds me of a character in a movie called "Earthquake" that was made in the 70s, remember the one National Guard guy who was in charge of other men and was mentally imbalanced? That's Mozdoc. Anyways, just thought youj would like to add this to your listing of places he's been banned from.

Stay safe, your lovable Wizzy-Type Donkey from Altered Realities, "Jeanette" D. Jennet.

P.S. If you would like to see the logfiles on this matter I'll need to ask permission from all the other parties involved before I do, you know, just a common curtesy thing.

Kacey Miyagami Legal Issues[edit]

I posted the following on Talk:Kacey Miyagami a couple of days ago and was wondering if you have any thoughts on it. My thoughts are that it's probably not worth doing if the article is likely to be unlocked within a few days, but if this could drag on for a while...

If the article (Kacey Miyagami) is likely to have to remain locked for more than a few days, I would like to suggest temporarily moving the Legal Issues section to a separate article, e.g. Kacey Miyagami/Legal Issues. There is a great deal more content in this article unrelated to the incidents and issues in question, and I think we should keep these accessible for unrelated edits and updates while the controversial section is locked down. --mwalimu 20:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

--mwalimu 13:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I've decided to take the protection and tag off, for now at least. If it happens again, we can deal with it then. --GreenReaper(talk) 14:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Changes to Justin Carpenter[edit]

Good day, GreenReaper. I've note you've marked my page as in need of contextual cleanup. I made a concerted effort to do so in yesterday's round of page updates, and believe significant progress has been made in that direction. If there are additional context-clarification concerns that I might be able to answer, please let me know on my discussion page, and I'll attempt to address them? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rancourt (talkcontribs) .

Hi Justin, and thanks for your work to improve the article! The cleanup tags were added by Spirou, who is on a wiki-break right now. If you feel you have addressed the general concerns raised by them, feel free to remove them. If anyone disagrees, they'll add one or more of them back - hopefully with more of an explanation on the discussion page of why they put them on there. People are more likely to write there than your own user talk page, so you might also want to add the page to your watchlist (if you have not already) by clicking the watch tab at the top, so that notification of edits to it or the attached discussion page will be emailed to you. You need to have that option enabled in your preferences, of course. --GreenReaper(talk) 19:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Kurrel the Raven article unlock[edit]

Hi, Kurrel the Raven here. Would it be possible to unlock and reinstate the WikiFur article i requested voluntary exclusion for?

If you need to verify the request is from me, feel free to check out the journal on my Furaffinity page and verify my IP address is from the right part of the world. Cheers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) .

Sure thing. I've done that now. I reinstated it to the page before the "lies and half-truth" revision. You are welcome to create an account and host the contents of that later revision on a user page (like User:GreenReaper as opposed to GreenReaper), but we'd prefer to keep the main article factual. Thanks! :-) --GreenReaper(talk) 13:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Keep ED link off my Wiki fur[edit]

Hey Green.Anjel here. I did some new edits to my Wikifur and I noticed someone tried to link my old ED from mirrored site. I want to keep the drama off my page so can you make sure that people will stop linking that to my wikifur. Thanks

Hi Anjel! The link there had already gained some comment. I have left a note there myself. If you are concerned about the content of the article, you should add it to your watchlist, and make sure that you have an email address set in your preferences. That way you will be emailed on changes so that you can review it yourself rather than relying on others to do so. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I have the IP of the person making the edits and I know their Idetity Its JoanMichele and her IP is User: can I ban that IP from my list?

I know that there is a history between us and that is much unfortunate, however I don't think Wikifur would appreciate knowing of your rather blatant attempt at libel. You give me too much credit and you're overtly paranoid. However, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and opened up the possibility that maybe my computer was hijacked. I checked ipconfig. If your report was accurate, then the results would match your given IP. Looks like it wasn't the case. :) --Joan-Michele 05:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Not necessarily. As GR said below, the used IP address was a proxy, which is essentially an anonymous IP that can be used instead of your actual IP. I'm not saying it /was/ you, just that your IP can be changed, and so there's really no way to prove either if you did or didn't do it. Spaz Kitty 05:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
There's no way to block individual users from editing a particular page. However, that IP address is in fact a proxy, so I have blocked it site-wide. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. My friend tells me that she can change her IP so if you can block a range of them from that area it would help. It is coming from nanchang china The only reason this user is on this site is to stalk me and cause drama. She has no account or has made any other edits as you can see.

Sweetheart, you got the wrong McCoy! XD --Joan-Michele 05:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
As noted, the editor was using a proxy server, not their own computer. They probably do not actually come from China. Such servers are present all around the world and more are created every day (usually by people exploiting vulnerable software). The editor probably just found it in a list of such servers. There is no good way to reliably bock users from a particular area, just those using a particular Internet Service Provider, and it would not help in this case. We do block proxy servers as we find them, though. If you look up the IP address of an anonymous editor and find it mentioned frequently in Google, that is a sign that it is a known proxy server, and you should let us know. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The person stalking me is from China. I know this because we use to be friends before she decided to turn on me and leak my friends lock entries to ED. The server probably is proxy.