User talk:GreenReaper/Policy2

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This is an archive page, covering admin and policy issues discussed on my user talk page from 11 September to 3 November 2005. Please do not edit this page - if you wish to bring up a topic, copy the relevant portion into a new section on the current page. Thanks! --GreenReaper(talk)

Go ahead for Community Portal rename[edit]

Heya, hope you are having fun at the PDC. ;) Just wanted to ask really when you next check up on us if I can ask permission (yes, I know, be bold, but this is kinda very bold so..) to make a page requesting people to suggest names for the Community Portal, following my notes here over the redesign of the two major site pages. Then remove the Wikimedia fundraiser link (since the drive is over now) and replace the site notice with a notice asking for name suggestions, and linking to that page. --Nidonocu - talk Nidonocu 13:25, 13 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. I'm sure people can come up with a few good ideas ofer the next week or so. Try and keep MediaWiki:Sitenotice to one line on 1024 width, or 800 if you can. --GreenReaper(talk) 20:01, 13 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Random Access[edit]

'Lo there. This is the person formerly known as Random. I've left the furry thing entirely a few years ago, but I still know some people who have contacts there. One those people let me know about this and the page about Random. I would deeply appreciate if you'd leave the Random page as it is now. Thanks.


Hi there! Judging by your edits I would assume you are referring particularly to the inclusion of your name on the article. I can understand your concern. Although we try to keep pages as freely-editable as possible, and so I do not intend to lock your page entirely, the WikiFur community also tries not to be vindicative, especially with regard to people who may have moved on.
Without being given an overriding reason for it being present, I shall ensure that your name is not present on the article. I have posted on the talk page and left a note to this effect. The neutrality of the article should also be maintained - if you or others notice text that apears to contradict this, you are welcome to modify it, as long as the facts reain. I hope this is satisfactory! --GreenReaper(talk) 03:31, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Blanking Mix[edit]

See also Talk:Mix

Mix has requested his page be blanked, and that all influence of him be removed from this wiki. It seems the administration here has a problem with that. The policies state that he is allowed to do this. So why are some people allowed to do this when others are not? In the long run, the only real policy that has been broached here is the inability to reach a consensus and the absolutly incredible vindictiveness of actual administrators to purposefully and repeatedly smear a guy.

I disagree with your use of the word "smear". People - and yes, this includes some administrators - are trying to work towards a situation where non-personal information that is relevant to an article is preserved while providing a fair coverage of facts. The simple truth is that some people find those actions that were actually taken distasteful.
The policies state that he is allowed to request the removal of personal information, or to blank his page. By the end of the day, if the situation is not resolved, it will be blanked. But the personal information that we have on him is positive so I would kinda like to avoid that. Otherwise, we just make him look like less of a person and more of a stereotypical goon.
He already looks like a goon! All the edits on him that make him look like a complete ass are coming from administrators here. They aren't NPOV, they're vindictive and cold. He's saying he's willing to sacrifice the good because it will also eliminate the bad. Making him look good on his article page does not mean its fair to make him look bad on every other page he can fit on.
Why not submit your own NPOV edit then? So long as the facts are included, I don't see any problems. --Dmuth 16:54, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

SA and Burned Fur have a huge history of sending people to convnetions and doing things. Yet, he's the only one mentioned. I saw that something awful hand gernade on a lot of things at AC, a lot of shirts, yet Mix is the only one getting publically ridiculed. I saw people harassing the hell out of him at AC. And it continues here. The guy has been asked to be left alone. Can he please be left alone?Redcard 16:26, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)

That's up to the people maintining the article. Maybe out of fairness, those other people should be mentioned too, so it's not only Mix there. I don't know about the situation so I can't do that myself.
THe people maintaining the article are mostly administrators who revert every time Mix tries to say something and who apparently are refusing to communicate with him.
People ridicule Sibe as well. Is that justified? Is it better to state the things that people have done in the hope that it stops them doing more, or not to, in the hopes that they will stop on their own? Posts on tevildo's livejournal seem to suggest that doing nothing has led to no change. --GreenReaper(talk) 16:36, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Er - I assume you mean Taren, not me - the link Mix posted on the discussion page? I have no more personal involvement with Mix other than having had his behaviour at AC described to me by other friends. Unless you're referring to something else? Anyway. What I would suggest is that Mix's entry is put to "exclude", but we keep references to the incident on the SA page itself, and possibly the AC05 page when that goes up. The facts are - the incident happened, it caused controversy at the time. It should be mentioned _somewhere_, I think. Tevildo 17:15, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, yes, Taren. And yes, that's my view. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:35, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
This should NOT be a court room. It should be an encyclopedia. The policies themselves say that Wikifur is not to be a battle ground. Mix wishes to not be a part of Wikifur. The mostly administrators who are editing that article are making him a part of Wikifur and are creating an antagonistic setting. He has requested per the policy to be blanked. What's so hard to understand about that? The administrators and others have latched onto his SA involvement, have made an effort to hurt him, and he is trying to disengage completely. What's so bad about letting this fight stop? Redcard 16:46, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
We (or certainly I, and it seems others too) don't agree that he should not be mentioned at all just because he doesn't want to be. We're willing to remove information that would be considered personal (although he doesn't have much of that, and what there is seems positive), but the general opinion appears to be that he should not be allowed to just remove mentions of actions that people thought significant, perhaps especially because people saw them in a bad light. Ultimately, the policy is there to reflect the general opinion of the community, not to enforce strictures on a majority disagreement with it. As far as I can see nobody is making inaccurate assertions about him. Plenty of people saw him there. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:35, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
He is not being ridiculed. Ridicule implies that he is being mocked or made fun of, and that is not what is happening. His actions have been documented, which includes his side of the story, and people who have disputed his side of the story.
Regarding the claim of "people harassing the hell out of him at AC", this is the first I have heard of it. I run the Convention Operations office at Anthrocon, and I find it strange that no reports were made either to the office or to security. I also find the timing of this complaint a little suspicious, seeing that it's only being mentioned just now, a good 2 months after the convention ended. --Dmuth 16:40, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Oh please. I trust con security about as far as I can throw them when it comes to things regarding safety of con-attendees. A lot of people feel the same way. You're surprised nobody told you that people were picking on a fur who was wearing a shirt of an unpopular group? Duh. Most people know better than to swim upstream. Redcard 16:46, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Please stop with the FUD and rhetoric. I've personally worked with The Dorsai for the last 4 Anthrocons, and they are about the most trustworthy and professional people I've dealt with. I do not believe that "not trusting" security is a valid reason for not bringing a harassment complaint to the our attention. Furthermore, had there been a bona fide cast of harassment taking place at the con, word would have spread very quickly after the con via LiveJournal, Usenet, etc. and it would have made its way back to us. Since this is literally the first we have heard of it, I question whether it really happened. It also does not changes the facts of what he did and wore while at the convention. --Dmuth 16:54, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
There is no FUD here. I don't report things to con-security anymore unless its directly life threatening since I reported people for selling and showing pornographic artwork to minors and I was mocked and ridiculed. Admittingly, this did not happen at AC, but at another convention. After further security lapses at various other conventions and the feeling of being made into a tattletale , I decided that I no longer cared what I saw. As for the Dorsais, yes, they are a reputable group and are a great team. However, the animosity that furs feel reporting things to security staff extends to conventions beyond Dorsai's involvement. Meaning, I developed the rule that I don't report things at other conventions, and that ingrained behavior stayed with me through AC. I only truthfully found out about the DI's after AC (as that weekend was a blur). Had I known they were there, I would have reported what I saw. Redcard 16:58, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Well, I must say that I'm somewhat shocked about your experiences with other con security teams. That just blows my mind. I guess I can understand your reasons for not wanting to report any problems. --Dmuth 17:05, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Remember that most cons cannot afford a professional security team and don't have access to the Dorsai. Most of the people you see on cons security at these cons have very little training in man management, personality, security, or control. They're just average furs who've volunteered. Very few of them even seem to have any reporting process in play. They're just furs with very little professional security experience other than these conventions.Redcard 17:16, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the Dorsai work for free or pretty close to it. We just provide them with rooms to sleep in and they handle their own schedules and pretty much run themselves. I'm actually confused as to why other furry cons haven't made use of their services. --Dmuth 17:22, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
I don't know. I just know that from the sci-fi cons I've been to that they've been at that they are a good group of people who seem to have their stuff together. And that they are the exception, and not the rule, for typical furry con security. Most people view con-security as overbearing control freaks, and they just avoid them like the plague. Everyone seems to have horror stories too. Redcard 17:28, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)


I think User: is adding misinformation (all the edits about North Star Kung Fu). -- Rat 09:51, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it does seem to have been a little odd. Someone trying to perpetuate an in-joke, I believe. Thanks for taking action. --GreenReaper(talk) 17:10, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Normal animal info[edit]

People seem to be copying lots of articles on animals from Wikipedia... I'm not sure this is appropriate, do we NEED normal articles on what an animal is? These things are not necessarily furry, as they have no connection with anthropomorphism. I think maybe some of these articles should be deleted. I mean, check the recent stuff that Tengu and Rat did... :(

Well, if you have disagreements with a person's edits you should really take it up with them first rather than me. :-)
In general, we do try to discourage copying just for the sake of increasing article count. If it is a particularly furry topic, then yes, copying is appropriate. Sometimes it's more appropriate to put a short summary including the link to the wikipedia article, followed by the furry content for the topic. Sometimes it's appropriate just to convert all links to the topic on WikiFur to links to the Wikipedia article. It depends on just how related something is to the furry fandom.

btw, how do I make an article flagged for a mod to look at it, or put in a vote for speedy deletion? I mean, look at half of the articles under species... many of them are just normal species articles. --Gavinfox 17:11, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

You can tag it by adding {{SpeedyDelete}} at the top. We really need a non-speedy-delete, too! Bear in mind that there is no particular cost for having pages around - they should really only be deleted if doing so would result in a better experience for the user. If you feel there are inappropriate amounts of copied text, you could always convert the name of the article to a link to the Wikipedia article and leave a short summary, plust the furry-speicfic info. --GreenReaper(talk) 18:24, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Thanksgiving target[edit]

Considering the rate at which new articles are currently being added, it's pretty clear that the wiki will reach 200 articles around the beginning of November rather than by Thanksgiving. The "2000 articles by Thanksgiving" blurb begins to look like something of a straw man at this point, set up to guarantee success.

Also, considering that disambiguation is insisted upon in articles like "Northern Furs" to prevent them from having an assumed American PoV, should a date like "Thanksgiving" really be used? It falls on the second Monday of October in Canada, and isn't celebrated at all in Europe or Australia.

--Ostrich(talk) 13:51, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Adjusted to "by November". --GreenReaper(talk) 06:25, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Well, you never know, we could reach that target by the Canuck Thanksgiving. ;) --Scani 15:55, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Good point. I remember being confused at first when I read Summon the Keeper (by Tanya Huff), which is set in Canada, when Thanksgiving was being celebrated before Halloween. I learned soon enough that Canadian Thanksgiving is in early October (this year it's the 10th according to my calendar). --mwalimu 17:18, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps we need to mark Central with Limitedgeographicscope. X-) --Nidonocu - talk Nidonocu 17:29, 26 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Rule of thumb for stubs. (Gee, that sounds wrong... :)[edit] long does an article have to be before it's not a stub anymore? I usually drop the stub templates on articles I create that I feel need more information...even if I've gotten a couple of paragraphs worth already.

Any general guideline, or just go with what sounds right? Carl Fox 05:36, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

I'd say you've pretty much got it there - if there's obviously a lotn more that "needs" to be said, but you can't say it, or don't have time to right now, it's a stub. Maybe a section stub, although we don't exactly have those yet. --GreenReaper(talk) 06:24, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Article of the Day?[edit]

Just to comment: I run the interlingua wikipedia, which has roughly as many articles as WikiFur does right now, and we do an article of the week, not article of the day. Until WikiFur gets to about 10'000 articles, that might be a better choice. Almafeta 12:21, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

I think it's certainly something that needs changing. Have opened it to general discussion at WikiFur talk:Featured articles. --GreenReaper(talk) 05:09, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

First-person articles[edit]

To the extent that this wiki can be considered a history, it's an unusual one, in that the people writing it are in many cases the people about whose deeds it is being written.

In particular point of fact, there's been a debate in the article Burned_Furs about whether and to what extent BF's behaviour resulted in the Vanity_Fair article. I'm quite able to give an authoritative answer to this question, but it would require that I abandon the neutral, third-person PoV which seems to be the wiki standard. I'm sure I'm not the only person in such a position.

Is there a standard in place to allow first-person information to be added, when relevant to the topic? --Ostrich(talk) 07:57, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for replying to this late - I didn't see it as it got put at the end of another section. I would suggest that you write it on a subpage of your user space (like User:Ostrich/Burned Furs and Vanity Fair, then link to it appropriately in the main article. You should also put {{personal-article|Ostrich}} at the bottom to make it clear to anyone who's reading that it's a personal opinion article. --GreenReaper(talk) 00:04, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Eyes of the Night[edit]

I would just like to congratulate you on your recent posting on a certain issue. It encapsulates both the spirit of the Wiki movement as a whole, and your excellent (and, I'm sure, often tested) skills in finding a consensus between the disparate elements of a notoriously combatitive fandom. We _are_ all behind you. :) Tevildo 20:57, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)

That means a lot to me. Thank you. --GreenReaper(talk) 21:09, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)
Thank _you_. I know, as a moderator of a furry site myself, that it involves taking a great deal of sh*t from lots of people, with little in the way of tangible rewards; I felt that it was right for me to express my praise for all you've done to make WikiFur the success it is, and will continue to be. Tevildo

Is this allowed or ok?[edit]

Is this sort of behavior really allowed. I just ran across it today and I am unclear if it violates any terms of use :P --Ultraviolet

I personally don't mind if people start writing pages about themselves as long as they do contain valid information. Others may have other views. I've made a few changes to try to reduce the implication that his opinion is WikiFur's opinion, but other than that I don't know about the topic (him), so I'm not about to make huge changes. And, to be honest, I'd rather people who view themselves as goons were editing pages about themselves rather than pages about other people. :-)
Feel free to make some of your own if you know something relevant about him that's not mentioned! --GreenReaper(talk) 19:58, 16 Oct 2005 (UTC)

General page template[edit]

IS there a general page template anywhere? One I can just cut and paste into a page I'm writing, and then fill in the areas so the format is the same as all the others?

It'd make things easier for lazy people like me :-) --Banner

I don't think there is, though you could try this:
[[Image:Something.png|right|200px|Title of image]]
'''Something''' is/are . . .

== External links ==

Frankly, the best way would probably to find a page close to the one you want to edit and copy the style from there. Different pages with different topics and content require different approaches. --GreenReaper(talk) 05:28, 22 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Also, StarrBucks has two 'r's in it. Could you edit the refering link and title page? I don't know where that gets done. --Banner

mwalimu beat me to the move (click the tab at the top of the page, select the new name). The linking pages to a page can be found by clicking "What links here" at the left of the page. --GreenReaper(talk) 05:36, 22 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Yo GreenReaper ¡[edit]

Hello, I'm Alek Fuchs, furmaster of, thanks for you comments in the front page of the FurryPedia.

responding to your question:

Yes, I Want to Know More. X3

Cya ¡¡¡

(Sorry, my english sucks.)

OK. Here is how it is. I am saying this in English because I do not want a translation program to make my words mean something else. :-)
Wikicities provides hosting for community-based wikis, including WikiFur. They manage the servers, the MediaWiki software, the networking, and are also there to offer advice if you need it. It is like a free web hosting company. You and your community manage your wiki - you have control over the layout, and of course the content.
There are various requirements - these are the most important:
  • The wiki would be licensed under the GFDL
  • The wiki would be run by the community, not by you personally
  • It would have adverts at the side, like WikiFur does, to help pay for the server. The ads might change, but they will never be popup ads.
It should be possible to keep your old name as the "name of the wiki", so you would still be "FurryPedia", not "WikiFur Español" - unless, of course, you wanted to be! The DNS name of the site would probably be Similarly you could change it to look how you liked through the MediaWiki CSS system; you would not have to stick to our style, use our logos or rules, or be under our administrators.
It is important to emphasise that it would still be your community's wiki - the promotion and success of it would be up to you and the Spanish-speaking furry fans you recruited. I would of course be pleased to mention in our news that you had joined us, and could help if you have wiki-related questions, but I couldn't guarantee any significant personal involvement - I have my own wiki to run! Besides, I have no knowledge of Spanish so would be useless. ;-)
The main benefit apart from the hosting would be the ease of linking to and from WikiFur articles. You could just put a tag like this: [[en:Fursuit]] - and it would make a link to the WikiFur page, in an "other languages" box. You can see this on most Wikipedia pages, or at WikiMac, another wikicity. You would be very welcome to take our pages and just translate them, even if you decide not to actually join us at Wikicities.
I will say I have been very happy with Wikicities, and have always found the people in charge easy to work with (they are mostly the same people who run Wikipedia), but I understand that it is not for everyone. I recommend you read more about Wikicities and see for yourself why you might (or might not) want to join us. --GreenReaper(talk) 18:38, 22 Oct 2005 (UTC)

While we're on the subject, GR... I might want to do the Interlingua wikifur still. My biggest problem was requiring the 'en.' prefix to '', but if that's still going to happen anyhow... nn;

(Also, I attempted to translate your statement to Mr. Fuchs into Spanish for you and him, but there was so many technical terms that I had to give up, not ever having needed to describe CSS or webhosting in spanish before.) Almafeta 16:08, 24 Oct 2005 (UTC)

That's good news. I would say that your fear is unfounded - the english WikiFur could still be the default, without the prefix. Note that is the same as - could be, and nobody would know the difference. We could have links to other languages somewhere on the main page. --GreenReaper(talk) 16:34, 24 Oct 2005 (UTC)


Hi :) Thanks for the warm greeting. Just one question. One person, an especially dramatic fur called korrok, has already began to make insulting and false modifications to the information I've posted. Edits were made anonymously, but traced to her IP, Is there any way to 'lock' entries once written to ensure that no false edits are made? --Marsten

delt with over ICQ --GreenReaper(talk) 01:29, 24 Oct 2005 (UTC)