Furry vs were
I don't see the distinction, but one is made by the subject of this article. -- Siege 08:41, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)
- Well, note that that is her distinction alone, and go on. Move it from the opening sentence (both here and on Black Tapestries); there are better ways to introduce an artist and webcomic than to say it is anthropomorphic, but she (or in the case of the comic, the creator) is rabidly anti-fur. Almafeta 12:55, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)
- Actually there is a BIG difference between Furries and "weres", unfortunately "were" has started to become a mainstream word in the furry community for more bestial or native type furries. That is why we have started to use the term "Therian" to describe ourselves. We don't do this as a sense of elitism like many furries claim, but as a further differentiation. Furries and therians are exclusive communities.
- In addition, I am not "rabidly antifur", I have a great many furry friends and I do hang out with a lot of furries on a daily basis. I do not like the general furry attitude, nor do I like having labels slapped on me - and then furthermore have furries vehemently attack me because I refuse to be labelled as such.
- I have noticed that Furries attempting to define something they do not understand on this wiki. Just because one doesn't see the difference between Furries and Therians does not mean there isn't one, and also does not mean one should assume they are one in the same.
- I see -no- reason to include whether or not I am a furry or a therian in the description. I am an artist of a comic that furry *might* enjoy reading. That is all one should be concerned with. - Jakkal
- I've reworded the article a bit, so it isn't quite as awkward. I'll make a simular change to the Black Tapestries article as well.
- There have always been distinctions between the "furry" and "were"/"therian" communities. These should be respected, from both sides, in my opinion. Carl Fox 04:12, 18 Nov 2005 (UTC)
I must agree with CarlFox. Both the furry and the were communities have unique attributes, some of which may be percieved as either positive or negative depending on your perspective. I'd say that both groups have their decent people and their troublemakers, their good points and their bad points.
In my personal experience both online and in real life, I have never percieved Jakkal as a "fur basher" who says that all furs are bad or evil. She does state that there are differences between these communities. She does not identify as a fur and she says that she is not personally comfortable with the general atmosphere and culture of the fur community, specifically in regards to the focus on sexuality that is very prominent in many areas of this community.
Having a personal preference to not identify as a fur does not make someone anti-fur any more than being heterosexual makes someone anti-gay. Not wanting to listen to heavy metal music does not make someone an anti-heavy metal activist. Personal choices should be respected as long as the person making the choices does not condemn anyone else for exercising the same right. Jakkal emphatically does not do so.
- Savage, Co-moderator, Werelist, also proud to be identified as a fur.
- Actually I've found Jakkal to be very anti-furry. I have a ton of IRC logs where she repeatedly nags about how disgusting and perverted we all are. I could quote one but for now, despite its lack of an NPOV I'll leave the article alone due to personal bias...
- Jakkal is also on Second Life and proudly sells furry avatars throughout the areas in-world that are heavily populated by the fandom. Is this a different Jakkal? If not I can't see how anybody could be more of a hypocrite. skippyfox 17:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't understand the need of many furries to play the victim constantly. Yes I bitch about furries, just apparently like you bitch about "anti-furries,". But I also bitch about role players, therians, republicans, idiots, fords, politicians, and plenty of other things. But I have many friends who are role players, therians, republicans, idiots, Ford owners, and politicians. If none of them gave me reason to bitch, I wouldn't bitch. But the point is, I have opinions. Shame on me for being human and having opinions. I don't hide these opinions, as they are publically known and accessable. Go ahead and post your IRC logs, they're my honest opinions assuming you didn't change anything. Anyone that's a furry is well aware of the strange and disturbing nature of the fandom. The problem is that many of you refuse to accept it or see it as normal. That's fine, that's your right. I don't, and I don't want to be part of it. Many things that go on in the fandom are disgusting and disturbing, and you seem to forget that *I* have every right to not want to be part of it. And when furries, such as yourself, try to personally harass me, yes, I'm going to bitch and complain. While many of you scream about respect for people's choices and lifestyles, it's hypocritical of you to not respect our feelings of being uncomfortable with what goes on in the fandom. It's hypocritical of you to bitch about me, and my posts, and my rantings when you, yourself, sat here and did the very same, even exaggerating the points and not giving the full story.
- You have your right to bitch and I'm not going to stop you, but I have the right to bitch as well. However I get the feeling that wikifur is NOT the place to do this. And Yes, I'm the same one on SL that sets "Anthro" avatars. I didn't write the description that the furries make for them. If you have ever paid attention to what really goes on around me, instead of the negative parts, you'd see that I don't generally mind it if people use that slang term around me. It's when I get harassed and vehemently label slapped that you'll see me make a stink. I sell anthropomorphic animal avatars. And you can rant at me til you're blue and the face that makes it "Furry" but it's not part of the fandom. The fandom requires anthropomorphism, anthropomorphism doesn't require the Fandom.
- Incidentally, I also "proudly" sell my avatars in other parts of SL. You'll excuse me if I try to sell avatars where the demand is high. But that still doesn't make me, or my avatars "Furries". Stuff Furries like? Sure. Just like there are lots of people that run around at the cons who aren't furries, but they sell stuff that appeals to furries. You can call me a hypocrite if you want, it doesn't matter to me. At least I can admit that I am sometimes, as is everyone. Can you say the same? Given your comments, I'd have to say that no, you can't. I'm sure you don't see the blatant hypocrisy in your posts.
- -Jakkal, getting sick of "furry victims"
- WikiFur isn't really the place for anyone to bitch. I highly recommend LiveJournal for that purpose. :-)
- I believe the furry fandom is a natural outgrowth of what some call anthropomorphic art, others call funny animals, and still others call furry art. It took the Internet for it to get beyond the "small meeting at science convention" stage, mostly because it's far easier to distribute art on the internet, and so it's easier for small art fandoms to maintain a niche. While it is true that there is no requirement for a fandom surrounding anthropomorphic art, I have a suspicion that there wouldn't be much of a market for artists who create such art without it. --GreenReaper(talk) 08:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oh trust me, the livejournal is most definitely used. I don't have a problem with the fandom in general, it just seems as if the fandom has a problem with anyone who skirts it, that doesn't want to be part of it. I keep getting targetted by these people because I enjoy the creation of anthropomorphic work, but I don't want to be part of the anthropomorphic fandom. For example, the art is really all I do. Just as it was pointed out in our RP the other day, I don't have a single anthropomorphic character, they're all humans. I don't have an interest in playing an anthro character. (We don't count Lore because she's theriomorphic, and never shifts anyway). But anyway, that's not the point. As I said, the fandom requires anthros, but not the other way around. Afterall, if the fandom formed because of the art, then the art obviously came first. I don't mind that furries like my work, as furries are fans of anthros, they'd naturally be attracted to it. But having furries enjoy my work doesn't make me one or part of their group. Frankly, I could do well without the attention I get. Anyway, you can delete these posts I made, I just wanted to reply to the snark that Skippfox posted and make sure he knows my opinion just as he wanted to make sure I knew his. -Jakkal
- Heh...I did not exaggerate anything I have said. I have written absolutely nothing that to cause any alarm in this article. My goal here is not to rant or be a "furry victim," which you accuse all furries of being. My goal, contrary to what you've just said, is truth. My goal is to give the full story. Wiki is all about factual information and I fully encourage that it is kept that way. "WIKI" itself stands for "What I Know Is..." But you continue to orient your thoughts entirely around opinions and your own judgments, rather than facts. If you want to play "hypocrite" tag, then fine: Which one of us has really gone off against the other here? Me, the purported "victim" with my two lines contributing to an entirely fair debate over where you choose to stand in the furry fandom, or you, with 860-some words with which you have chosen to attack me for "bashing" you? You've failed to remain calm and rational in this matter where I've been completely objective.
- In any event, the reason I'm replying is the same as before. I was looking for clarification on some factual details about you that can be used in the article. You've provided a few...so thanks. :)
- Just out of curiosity...if you don't want to be involved in the fandom like you say, then why do you continue to do so? skippyfox 20:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not. People like you continue to drag me into it? Why? Because I create anthromorphic artwork. My SL creations are, as well, anthropomorphic artwork. The furry fandom is about /people/ who are /fans/ of anthropomorphic artwork /and/ fans of those who create it. I am not /in the fandom/ because I am not a /fan of anthromorphics/. I enjoy making them, but I'm not a fan of them. I don't RP them. I've only drawn them, and made a race of them as part of my comic because I do /enjoy drawing them/. But I could care /less/ about them. The only reason my favorite character has a theriomorphic form is because she /hates it/ and that makes her interesting to me. It's NOT because she's an anthro. I Also do not participate in the fandom. I don't go to cons. I don't hang out in furry sims on SL. I don't hang out in Furry chat rooms. I don't write on furry message forums. I only /skirt/ the community because many members of the fandom hang out with me, or they contact me in various forms (Other forums, LJs, Chats, SL, etc). I Don't make "Furry avatars" I make "Anthropomorphic avatars." I don't make them just for furries, I make them for anyone that wants one. Just like I make art for anyone to look at, I don't /care/ what their fandom is. I make the same thing that helped create the fandom to begin with (Anthro art and related), but I am not in the fandom nor do I have to be in or part of the fandom to do so. It just means that it's something the furries would naturally be attracted to.
- However, the furry fandom is the ONLY group that consistantly /pisses me off/ with label slapping, sniper insults, direct insults, complete and total lack of respect for my feelings. So you'll excuse me if I'm not exactly happy with furries as a group, especially when people like yourself, representing the fandom in your own way, tries to attack me in various methods. I am, and do often give individual furries a break as I know there are many great people in the fandom. But as a group, you people have serious moral and emotional issues, and I wish you'd stop taking it out on me. And the more you take it out on me, the more I will bitch, whine, moan, and complain about the incidents that take place and that I'm dragged into. If furries want me to stop complaining about them, they need to learn to respect the feelings of the people who make the stuff they love. (Or hell, learn to respect the feelings of just anyone else in general). Common courtesy is truly lost it seems. -Jakkal, Not-A-Furry.
- I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to respond to this, considering you're doing a pretty good job of making yourself look bad all on your own. Maybe I'm just trying to be helpful at this point. After all, as much as you wish to accuse me of lacking in respect for others (yes, even respect for people who call me "sick perverts") I do respect people. Everybody is human. Regardless, I'm seeing two things here that I want to make a point of. The first is minor: Originally "furry" meant anthropomorphic characters such as Bugs Bunny and the like, and furry fans were fans of furries, exactly as they are meant to be. A "furry avatar" remains what it always was...an avatar of an anthropomorphic character or a furry. So by definition, your anthropomorphic avatars ARE furry avatars no matter how you look at it. The definition of 'furry' in your eyes has been specially molded and fitted to suit your preferences, to place you outside of the definition and outside of the degrading stereotypes you continuously associate with it. This is not an accusation or an exaggeration. It's an observation.
- The second item is major: Your hatred for furries both fuels and is fueled by peoples' hatred of you. You are set off every time someone mentions your name and puts the word 'furry' somewhere near it, and your reply to my original post is a very good example of that. The end result is a circular pattern that is exacerbated with each cycle: The more you complain about furries, the more furries complain about you. You've implied this yourself. What you haven't seemed to realize is that you're just as much at fault as anybody else who wishes to get involved. Being one side of the argument, you are in fact half of the battle, half of the drama here. Masses can't easily be stopped, but I know that individuals can stop themselves. So if you really want the world to shut up and quit bugging you, maybe you ought to just stop harassing the world. I'm not trying to stir up heat, I'm trying to qualm it. You should too. skippyfox 21:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Your first point is fallacious logic. My definition of "furry" is the english standard. Your definition of furry is slang, vague, and has no clear definition. I'm not the one molding and fitting terms here, you are. Please note that is not an insult, that is a point of fact. "Furry" is a slang term, such as "Nigger" is a slang term. In addition, if I'm forced to be in the furry community because I have "anthro avs" by your definition, then you're in a pervert community because you have perverts in the fandom. Stereotyping is a bad thing, and it's the reason that the furries get such a bad rap overall. So you'd do well not to stereotype me just as many others have stereotyped your fandom. My avatars and my artwork are anthropomorphic, as anthropomorphic is a valid, understood adjective. Look it up if you don't believe me. If other people call them 'furry' avatars, because it's slang, I don't really care. That's just what they do. But that does NOT, AT ALL mean they are 'furries' or part of the 'furry fandom'. They are out there for anyone to enjoy.
- That brings up your second point. Which I also must contest because you have your facts incorrect. What I dislike is label slapping. If I say I'm not a furry, and I'm not in the fandom, I expect people to respect that and not try to drill into my head about how I MUST be a furry and how I AM part of the fandom. Or the typical "You're a hypocrite if you hate the fandom and make the shit that's in the fandom. (Blantant, illogical insult) I'm only "part" of the fandom in that my artwork is exactly what drives the fandom, but as a creator I am not part of it nor do I wish to be. What fuels the hatred is the people who consistantly argue with me and butt heads with me, telling me that I AM part of the fandom, that my work IS "Furry", made FOR furries, with FURRIES in mind. I do NOT mind if people casually call it furry, unlike what you've said. If you even look at our store in FurNation Omega, the admins there put down "Furry avatars" which I have no control over. I have never mentioned to them to remove it or take it down because, why bother? It doesn't piss me off like you guys think. If you'd take the time to calmly and rationally consider all the facts you'd finally see my point instead of thinking that I'm completely anti-furry. If I /were/ completely anti-furry, I'd be way too disgusted to even sell my avatars given I know what eventually happens to them.
- In addition, I never said I wasn't at fault and I am aware of the cycle. As I said I know I'm not a perfect person, but which one of us here admits it? Hm? If it weren't for my vehement rebuttals, I would have /stopped/ a long time ago, BUT I also would have stopped posting my artwork and would have stopped making my comments because you people attack EN MASS and none of you seem to understand that. So I will NOT stop fighting. I refuse to be another artist that stops making what they love because furries refuse to leave them alone. And there are PLENTY of artists, and even some VERY top names in 'Furry" comics who laud me for continuing to fight because they grew too sick to continue long ago. So yes, I'm part of a cycle. I only rant when it comes at me. So don't even imply that I'm harassing the world. I could, easily, but I don't. And you bet your furry little ass that I won't, ever, stop when I do get harassed. The least little bit I expect from the people, like yourself, who /do/ bitch and complain to me is /at the very least/ get your facts straight, don't start off with the insults, and don't pretend you're "trying to help" or you're doing anyone any favors. We all know better. But like I said, this wiki was made as an information resource, not a place for you to sniper people you don't like. If you want to argue this, take it to my LJ as you've obviously found. But don't continue the tirade here. And don't expect me to stop it for you, as all I'm doing is just replying. - Jakkal
- The standard English definition for furry is probably something like "covered with a thick coat of soft hair." I haven't bothered with the rest of your reply because I do have real things to worry about. If all you want to do is turn this into a slew of personal insults irrelevant to the topic at hand, I suggest taking GreenReaper's advice and isolating this to your LiveJournal. I hope things work out for you. skippyfox 22:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- I need say no more - Jakkal.